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 Post subject: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:50 am 
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I was wondering if anyone could help me figure out this problem that just started with my trigger.

Yesterday while shooting my trigger started acting up while shooting doubles. The problem is after the first shot it’s almost like the trigger does not reset. When I go to pull the trigger for the second shot nothing, but it does make a very very faint “click” however not as crisp and distinct as if it was being dry fired. So I decided to just shoot doubles to repeat the problem. I found that about every 6-8 time I try to shoot doubles I am unable to shoot the second shot unless I pull the trigger a couple times then it fires, obviously this is really really annoying. Does anyone know what the problem is? Maybe a spring is worn out? Is this a problem I can fix myself or should it be done by a professional? If so should I send it to Beretta or will my local gunsmith be able to fix it?


Last edited by dmarsh on Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 11:08 am 
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I'm having exactly the same problem with my 682 Gold E. If I shoot bottom barrel first I never have an issue, however sometimes when firing the top barrel first the trigger does not reset.

The trigger will be "loose" (flopping around), then when you pull it a time or two it will fire.

I'll be very interested to hear what everyone has to say. I realize I may need to send it to Cole's, but want to explore options before I send it in.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:05 pm 
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CCV

Yup that is exactly what my trigger does except I shoot bottom barrel first, maybe i will try switching to top barrel first. However I would really like to resolve the issue not bypass it. If I do end up sending it in ill be sure to let you know what the problem was/how it was fixed.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:27 pm 
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It could be crud in the inertia mechanism, could be a bad inertia lever spring. Myself, I'd pull the stock and put the whole receiver in a bucket of mineral spirits or kerosene whatever you have handy. let it soak a while and then set it out to dry (or use air if you have it.) Then spray the assembly with a good lube - I use tetra gun, and let it dry again. Then give it another try. If it's an inertia lever spring, they are not real difficult to do - but unless you're familiar with the trigger group it might be best left to a competent gunsmith.

The "loose trigger" sounds more like a mucked up / broken trigger spring- I'd end that to either Coles or Phillips if a good cleaning doesn't solve the problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:45 pm 
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John,

If it were a broken spring wouldn't you expect to have the problem every time?

Mine only does it 1-2 times out of ten. Crud or dried lube sounds like a possibility to me.

How difficult is the stock to remove and re-install?

CCV


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 09, 2012 8:11 pm 
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about 30 seconds if your butt pad has a hole in for the long 6mm allen head stock wrench. A couple minutes if you have to take the recoil pad off.

I release the top lever first by pushing in the release pin on the face of the receiver. You don't have to - but it hangs over the side of the receiver and it's a little easer to mar the stock if you wiggle it wrong taking it off.

You need a 8" or so 6 mm allen head wrench to turn the stock bolt. I loosen it a couple turns and then give it a smack with the palm of my hand to move the receiver forward out of the stock. Again you don't have to - but if you loosen the bolt completely and then start wiggling and pulling on things you could crack the stock. So loosen the stock bolt a turn or two, smack it forward with your hand ( i said 'hand' not hammer, cheater, etc!) you should feel the receiver let go of the stock. Then I continue to turn out the bolt pushing on the allen head wrench and it will push the receiver straight out from the stock. Very simple.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 4:19 pm 
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John,

Do you agree if the spring were broken I should see the problem every time?


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:02 pm 
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I've decided to remove the stock and take a look myself, the wrench is ordered.

When I remove the stock, should the action be cocked or uncocked (or does it matter)?


CCV


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:22 pm 
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dmarsh

Make sure the gun is seated firmly in the shoulder pocket when firing
1.Clean the action
2. There are 2 very fine springs associated with the inertia mass that will cause the problem if broken; I have replaced both of these on separate occasions to correct the problem you describe. if you suspect one of these may be causing your problem I would suggest that you take the gun to an experienced Beretta 680 Gunsmith to perform the repair; it is a delicate operation and at least in my experience has required fabricating a slave pin to complete the repair.
Hope this Helps;
Chuck

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 10:00 pm 
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One nice trick to know is that the pin that holds the safety in - is a perfect slave pin for the spring replacement process.

To pull the stock - cocked or uncocked makes no difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:30 am 
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I had exactly the same problem with both my 687 Silver Pigeon III and my 471 Silver Hawk. The 687 went back to Beretta under warranty twice to be "fixed" but wasn't. In the end I sold both at a considerable loss and swore I would never buy another Beretta. Then I found the Prevail III and I just had to have it. It is simply the best Beretta I've ever owned, the trigger works faultlessly the gun is a joy to shoot and the only problem I have encountered is that sometimes my thumb pushes over the barrel selector when I operate the top lever but I can live with that since it is a known problem with all 68X models.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 8:08 am 
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You also need to remove the sideplate screws before the stock will come off. The slots are very thin, I had to hand grind bits when I worked on one for a friend of mine. You also need to hold one side while you turn out the other side, they screw into each other from the opposite side.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:25 pm 
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John H,

Your instructions were crystal clear, thank you for that.

I removed the stock on my 682 Gold E today and did not find any broken parts, found some grunge but no rust (that is a good thing). Cleaned everything I could clean with a good solvent then blew it dry with canned air. I sparingly lubricated with Kellube, tried to include all pivot and contact points, reassembled and dry fired (with snap caps).

As you said, this was easy and made me feel a lot better knowing there was no rust accumlation. I noticed the trigger pull seemed lighter and was pleasantly surprised when I measured the trigger pull with my Lyman trigger scale and found the pull on both barrels was reduced more than 1/2 lb.

I haven't had the opportunity to fire the gun, hopefully later this week I can give it a good workout. Here's hoping this problem goes away.

Thanks again for your input, I found it quite helpful.


CCV


Last edited by CCV on Mon Sep 24, 2012 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:49 pm 
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I had a similar problem and when I pulled the stock off, there was a tiny wood shaving stuck in the trigger action. As far as a broken spring, the whole point of a coil spring action is that the gun can still fire with a broken firing pin spring (it still gets compressed even if it is in 2 or 3 separate pieces), but it will be inconsistant in terms of solid strikes.

So before you lose a lot of time and cost, pull the stock and inspect, clean well and lube.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2012 6:42 pm 
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As I mentioned in an earlier post, I removed the stock per John H’s instructions then cleaned and lubricated the action. Went to the range this morning, fired everything top barrel first, and the gun was flawless through two boxes of shells (before it would fail to reset the bottom barrel 2-3 times out of ten). I was really feeling good about things and was optimistic it was fixed.

Then halfway through the third box the problem returned. I can’t believe there is much wrong or it wouldn’t work well for any period of time.

I hate to box it up and send it off but am running out of ideas. Anyone want to chime in?


Last edited by CCV on Fri Nov 16, 2012 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 2:00 am 
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CCV wrote:
As I mentioned in an earlier post, I removed the stock per John H’s instructions then cleaned and lubricated the action. Went to the range this morning, fired everything top barrel first, and the gun was flawless through two boxes of shells (before it would fail to reset the bottom barrel 2-3 times out of ten). I was really feeling good about things and was optimistic it was fixed.

The halfway through the third box the problem returned. I can’t believe there is much wrong or it wouldn’t work well for any period of time.

I hate to box it up and send it off but am running out of ideas. Anyone want to chime in?


CCV this is a word perfect description of the problem I had with my 687 Silver Pigeon III. As I said mine went back to Beretta twice under warranty to be fixed but wasn't and in the end I flicked it off at a loss. Get yourself a SV10 Prevail III and move on up to the next level of Beretta performance. Good luck.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Reference the Brownells schematic for the 682 gold e.

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=0/si ... -Evolution

Part no. 90 - what they call the inertia block rest has a sear on the forward face of it. The assembly of parts 86, 87, 88, 89, and 98 engage that sear. One issue I have seen is that if the sear surface is rough the paul block can't release from the inertia block rest. Another related issue is the spring no. 88. What is supposed to happen is when the gun is fired the gun is driven reward, when your shoulder stops that reward motion the inertia block continues reward ever so slightly - this releases the paul block sear which allows the second bbl to arm when the trigger is fully released. If the spring or the sear are messed up, have burrs, sticky grease - you can get FTF.

Another thing to look at is if the inertia block itself can travel reward without binding or dragging on anything.

I would not mess with the sears yourself. The spring isn't too hard to change - but it isn't something to mess with if you're not mechanically adept.

For 682 triggers I'd send it to Coles or Philip Crenwelge (http://www.phillips-gunsmithing.com/). There isn't any reason they shouldn't work flawlessly for years.

john

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 Post subject: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 7:11 am 
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I had a similar problem with my SPII.

I bought and replaced all the springs and firing pins. I believe the culprit was the bottom firing pin. The back surface of the pin that gets hit by the hammer had a flat spot from firing. The pin sort of spins in it's hole so any time the flat spot would line up with the hammer the gun would say click and not bang! It would dent the primer but not enough to fire the shell.

It would be great to see pictures of the slave pin in use.


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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2012 10:16 am 
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Which is a good point dcb - if the gun was that gunky to start with he could have crud in the firing pin sockets. Removing the lower pin is easy - removing the upper firing pin isn't difficult - put there are some small springs to watch for as you have to pull out the latch release pin. Looking at the same schematic - you have to remove pin no 39 - which drops out the latch release parts 35,36,37, & 38. Then you can remove the retaining pin (no 40) for the upper firing pin. 36 and 37 are a tiny little spring and plunger you do not want to drop on the carpet :-)

Another simple thing to look at - before you put the thing in the mail - is the cocking levers. If you have a stuck cocking rod plunger (parts 45 and 46) you can get FTF on the second bbl. You can remove the cocking rod plungers without dropping the trigger group - but I personally prefer to pull the trigger group. A stuck plunger allows the cocking rod levers (47 and 48) to flop about on their axle pin (44). They can and will interfere with the hammer (this is somewhat intermittent - the gun might fire, and it might not.) IF the gun goes click, and you can actually hear the hammer fall - but nothing happens then the cocking rods, levers, and plungers are something to look at.

There is a discussion here on how to do that: viewtopic.php?f=57&t=278811

If you just have a dead trigger on the second bbl - it's likely that either you're trapping the trigger, or the inertia rest sear or the paul block spring are fouled.

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 Post subject: Re: Trigger Problems with 687 EELL
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:17 am 
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Well, I just wanted to give everybody an update:

I followed John H's suggestion and AGAIN removed the stock and used Gunscrubber to clean the action. After allowing plenty of time to dry I then gave it a good dousing with RemOil. The action was the left to "drip dry" overnight then reassembled.

So far it is working perfectly. I've had it out to the range severally times and have fired 10 boxes or so through it with no problems. I'll continue to monitor it closely but I think it's fixed.

Thanks for everyone' s help and advice.

CCV


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