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 Post subject: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:39 am 
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what are thoughts for the 410 for home defense?
i am considering this for HD due to recoil and less over penetration
may be moving into an apartment or mobile home soon


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 5:08 pm 
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I am not in favor of any shotgun as a HD or personal protection weapon. You can't keep it on your person, so it's unlikely it will be at hand if needed. The .410 will shoot through walls the same as any other shotgun. All that said, the one and only case I personally know of where a shotgun was actually used in a HD setting, it was a .410 and the shot was fatal to the intruder. Maybe consider one of the .410 revolvers if you just have to have a shotgun for home defense.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Wed Oct 10, 2012 10:28 pm 
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IMO a shotgun with buckshot is a better HD weapon than the inumerable pistols that have been bought for that purpose and then never practiced with. HD is about hitting your target and in a dark or semi-lit room when you are under pressure, scared and still half asleep your chances of hitting your target with a pistol are minimal unless you have practiced with it a lot.

But a .410 is not the right shotgun for the job. Get an 18" semi-auto in 12 gauge with a C choke then load it with 2 3/4" #4 buck. Greatly improved chances of hitting your target and the muzzle blast alone in a dark room will scare the crap out of most intruders even if you miss. In a situation where you honestly believe your life is threatened (the only situation where you should shoot at somebody) worrying about overpenetration should be reserved for after the encounter.

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 Post subject: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 9:23 pm 
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While a 410 will recoil less, each pellet will penetrate the same as a larger gauge shell, due to similar muzzle velocities. A 000 buck pellet will do the same thing out of a 410 as a 12 gauge, there will just be less lead in the air, and I'd think twice about birdshot for HD, unless you are very recoil sensitive.

I've considered a 410 myself, but went with a 20 gauge in the end. You might want to post/search around the HD/Tactical section.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 11:18 pm 
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If you can handle the recoil, Id use the larger gun, but the .410 is IMO better than given credit for, which may not mean much as Im not an expert.

ive patterned alot of the vaious loads in my 410s even out of a judge (poor choice imo).
the 4buck handgun loads seem to be the most effective, enough shot 9 pellets, to get a good pattern at 25yds about 12" out of my full choke, not too different out of my Mod or IC.
at 15yds its pretty tight yet, but not terrible.

penetration would be the same as any other shotgun, but knowing what is behind the inteded target is alway important.

the way I see it, the shotgun stays in the safe room, in my case the bedroom, there is an extra phone etc in there as well. The handgun goes with if I have to collect the rest of my family, and may need a free hand.

in a nutshell, not my first choice but id not feel undergunned with one in the least.


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 Post subject: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:03 am 
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I just picked one up for this very reason. My fiance stays in our new house alone and she's more afraid of my 12ga shotguns than she would be of an intruder. She doesn't mind the 410 at all and is pretty confident with it. More practice is needed, but she is taking to it quickly and it makes me feel a lot better knowing she will use SOMETHING instead of nothing if an intruder would enter the home when I'm not there.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 1:27 am 
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hideit wrote:
what are thoughts for the 410 for home defense?
i am considering this for HD due to recoil and less over penetration
may be moving into an apartment or mobile home soon


It is a horrible choice. The notion of "over-penetration" can get you killed, it is totally the wrong way to think about being forced to save your life. A piece of buckshot has no different penetration regardless of what size tube it comes out of. Heavier guns have less recoil.

12 gauge is best, by far, as there aren't that many 20 gauge loads to choose from. But you dove have 20 ga. Remington #3 buck (20 pellets) or 20 gauge Federal #4 buck (24 pellets).

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

If you need to go 20 gauge, the 2-3/4 in. #3 Buck Remington shell is the best bet.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:34 am 
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I would skip the .410 and get a 12ga much better choice. If you ever need to use it. You will need the best stopping power or you could be the victim.
I like my .40 glock better then a shotgun. Much easyer to move around the house with it if needed.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 7:00 am 
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410 is a versatile firearm &I'm confident it willstop an intruder. practice is needed and the right load. winchester buckshot fired thru 21/2 " plywood traveled 3ft& went thru my shed. 1/2" plywood ext.. got my respect thats at 15yds.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:21 am 
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A .410 is the least versatile shotgun made. As far as being "effective," a .22 long rifle offers far better penetration and far better accuracy.



What is being posted makes no sense. Who lives in fear of being attacked by a shed? As far as being more "afraid" of a 12 gauge than an intruder, who can be serious? How many times has someone dialed 911 at the sight of a 12 gauge shotgun in a gun cabinet?

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 8:56 am 
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I patterned a bunch of 12 pellet #4 buck 28ga. loads, no way in hell would I depend on them for home defense! Better than a pillow case full of doorknobs, but that is about it!

Maybe it was just the chokes though.

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 Post subject: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 3:55 pm 
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Randy, I always like reading the information you offer to this forum. I probably worded my previous post wrong. What I should have said is that my fiance would be much more likely to practice and get comfortable with a 410 than my 12ga I have in th HD role already. I was just trying to state the point that she is a smaller person and if that means getting a smaller ga gun for her so she WILL train and practice, then I would rather her be shooting a smaller gauge that she is comfortable using than a bigger gauge that she refuses to train with. It's hard enough to get her to the range as it is.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 4:06 pm 
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Personally ive never heard of anyone being attacked by a blob of balistic gel either :roll:

as far as the .22 goes, even the best .22lr jams, or has duds, nope not for me. Also Id take the 9 pellets in the air than the 1 bullet, if I were given the choice between the 2. which thankfully I dont have to.

I think everyone is in agreement that the biggest gun you can handle is the best option
be it a handgun or shotgun. and everyone needs to make that choice for themselves in the end.

Good luck


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:26 pm 
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chevy_69k20 wrote:
I was just trying to state the point that she is a smaller person and if that means getting a smaller ga gun for her so she WILL train and practice, then I would rather her be shooting a smaller gauge that she is comfortable using than a bigger gauge that she refuses to train with. It's hard enough to get her to the range as it is.


That's a problem. If she isn't motivated enough to get some formal training and to feel absolutely comfortable with firearms, then what is the likelihood that she could be actually be functional, much less accurate, in a high-stress situation?




Some folks aren't comfortable with firearms, I well understand that, but if they don't see the need to acquire proficiency with them . . . they won't acquire it. The .410 is a horrible choice; at self-defense ranges you can easily miss. Handguns, quite contrary to media (and Hollywood) portrayals, are not particularly lethal. 6 / 7 people shot by handguns survive; rarely are they incapacitated. Some folks have put it more directly: the purpose of a handgun is to get to your rifle, etc.

#3 buckshot weighs 23.4 grains, the Remington 20 pellet load is 468 grains. That's right at an ounce (1.06 oz) with a moderate velocity of 1220 fps (less with a 18.5 inch barrel). That's a very low recoil load and about the minimum for effective home defense duty.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:05 pm 
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I think it could make an excellent home defense choice although I personally prefer a larger gauge gun. In my view almost any shotgun is a better choice than a handgun for home defense. Being accurate with a handgun in a stressful emergency situation is often beyond the capability of even trained police officers. A short barreled shotgun with birdshot offers a greater margin for error, wicked lethality, and a serious intimidation factor.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:54 pm 
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PaGrouse wrote:
A short barreled shotgun with birdshot offers a greater margin for error, wicked lethality, and a serious intimidation factor.


Lethality if you are attacked by birds, perhaps.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:24 pm 
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At one time I believe Federal made a load for HD of 2's at about 1000 fps. Low recoil and a fairly large shot size. I had a discussion with a young police officer I knew about shotguns at close range as he thought that he would hardly have to aim his cruiser 870. At room ranges, which are about what 20 feet, a shotgun has a pattern little better than a rifle. Larger sizes of birdshot will hamburger anything with a pattern at that range. Glaser (may be spelled different) came out with a bullet called a "safety slug" designed for police officers to eliminate richochet and over penetration where bystanders might get hit. They were bullets of encapsuled birdshot that would release the shot on impact and were considered by a certain liberal contingent to be too deadly to be used on another human being. In 38 special they only contained about 1/4 to 1/3 oz of fine shot. At the very close ranges we are talking about in HD most shotguns are pretty nasty and pretty sudden. I would prefer to use at least a 20ga and a 12 is better. One of the Daltons, after he got out of prison, said that it was lucky hanguns were used as much as they were in the West or more people might have gotten hurt. Some of the stories about gunfights involving handguns are almost amusing considering the number of shots fired and the number of hits. Edward Marshall studied police handgun lethality and basically stated that no officer should purposly take one into a gunfight. He recommended a 12 ga with slugs or buckshot. Winchester makes some interesting loads for a 410 using disks because of the popularity of the "Judge" They also revived the old buck and ball loads as used in BP muskets during the Revolutionary war for the 12 bore. A 410 shoulder gun used at under 10 yards would likely be lethal with some of the specialized loads developed for them, but if you look at police and the marines, the 12 rules.

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 Post subject: Re: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 6:32 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
PaGrouse wrote:
A short barreled shotgun with birdshot offers a greater margin for error, wicked lethality, and a serious intimidation factor.


Lethality if you are attacked by birds, perhaps.

I doubt you'd volunteer to stand in front of one. And yet you're not a bird.

Hmmm...

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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 9:33 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
PaGrouse wrote:
A short barreled shotgun with birdshot offers a greater margin for error, wicked lethality, and a serious intimidation factor.


Lethality if you are attacked by birds, perhaps.


That's funny :D
Use whatever you imagine to be best but a 1ounce to 1 1/4 ounce load of 5's or 6 shot in the chest or head at 10 feet will be lethal more times than not. We're talking "home defense' here. Unlikely any shots would be more than 15 feet in the average house, probably closer.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 for home defense
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:10 am 
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PaGrouse wrote:
Unlikely any shots would be more than 15 feet in the average house, probably closer.


Fifteen feet? You let them inside your house?

You should'a brought a bigger gun. If mortal danger is within 15 feet of attacking me I want more than a .410 bore.

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