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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:39 pm
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Hi all....Long time reader, first time poster.
I actually created an account because I felt I needed to reply to this thread.

Actually not so much a reply but a question.

OP - Just very curious to ask, why did you say you want to upgrade to a high-end gun and go from a 682 to a P or K gun and make no mention of the Beretta DT11?

Reason i'm asking is that I am looking at Beretta's new DT11, I saw it and had the opportunity to shoot it at the Grand and apart from having the same trigger it is a completely different feeling gun to the old DT10.

I have shot a 680 / 682 all my life so I may be biased for Beretta but I believe that the DT11 is not only on par with K guns and P guns but I am really leaning towards it after having shot many different guns in the last 2 months. Fit & finish is spot on and they finally made a real high rib gun.

I spoke to my dealer and they said that the gun that I shot won't be available until early next year so I have a few months to make my decision..I guess I was curious why you don't think it is on par as I am looking for something that I will never need to replace (it will never happen he he I like buying guns)




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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:41 pm 
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CSR123,
Glad you finally joined the fray! Welcome to the exciting side of Shotgunworld.

I'm assuming from your post that you've shot a DT-10. Based on your experience, why do you like the DT-11 better?

More on topic, there are a lot of high end guns out there. It would be impossible to list them all. And, many will not agree on exactly what a high end gun is. So, I'm not surprised that he only mentioned a few.

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 9:55 am 
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I'm a Beretta lover and user and have high regard for the DT-10. Have never had the opportunity to look at or shoot the DT-11. Will guess it is an improvement over the 10 especially in barrels. BUT....at this point the DT-11 is irrelevant to the trap community..... until the company comes out with 34" single barrels both top and unsingle, thereto a combo. The DT-11 is still considered to be a gun of the future.

Your looking at 5 years before serious shooters endorse the DT-11. Hope that goes better than the DT-10 intro.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 10:34 am 
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Maltzie is right about the DT-10 intro. It developed a bad rep very quickly. I guess some of the early guns had a habit of opening up as they were shot. This was corrected, but the damage was done.

In the long run that worked out for me personally because I was able to get a very high end gun for a very reasonable price.

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:39 pm
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Rastoff wrote:
CSR123,
Glad you finally joined the fray! Welcome to the exciting side of Shotgunworld.

I'm assuming from your post that you've shot a DT-10. Based on your experience, why do you like the DT-11 better?

More on topic, there are a lot of high end guns out there. It would be impossible to list them all. And, many will not agree on exactly what a high end gun is. So, I'm not surprised that he only mentioned a few.


Thanks!

The DT11 felt like a different gun altogether.
The stock is a LOT bigger, the gun is overall probably a pound and a half heavier, the rib is double the height, the palm swell is bigger etc.
It just fit me a lot better and it had the same triggers as the DT10 which I always loved.

I know there are a lot of high end guns but was curious why that wasn't mentioned as he said he had a Beretta.
I am just trying to make sure I get the right gun ha ha i've been obsessing for the last 2 months.

maltzahn wrote:
I'm a Beretta lover and user and have high regard for the DT-10. Have never had the opportunity to look at or shoot the DT-11. Will guess it is an improvement over the 10 especially in barrels. BUT....at this point the DT-11 is irrelevant to the trap community..... until the company comes out with 34" single barrels both top and unsingle, thereto a combo. The DT-11 is still considered to be a gun of the future.

Your looking at 5 years before serious shooters endorse the DT-11. Hope that goes better than the DT-10 intro.

Maltz


What do you mean the DT11 is irrelevant to the trap community??
The gun that I shot was a trap gun..It had a 1" high rib and they had the 32" O/U as well as a combo with 34" bottom single. They said they won't be doing a top single for the first launch though I've never used a top single so that doesn't bother me..
Granted it's not in the country yet but Beretta has produced them and they are already available in some countries.
My dealer told me that we would see them launched officially at the Shot Show 2013.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:11 pm 
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Well.....let me stand somewhat corrected. If the single barrel is now somewhat available. Also makes the combo available.

Will the DT-11 be introduced with the same level of buyers compared to the CGuns. Not at the difference in price. Or the Blaser..... getting closer. When it comes to high grade guns it takes time for the shooting community to warm up to any new entry. For example, the Kgun KX-6. A mid-range prices top single from a noteable company. The market was and still is slow after a year of entry. Look for Beretta DT-11 sales to reflect current DT-10 sales even if there is great improvement from the previous model. Those said sales are not solid with the high end market running in slow motion.

It will take 5 or more years to develop a successful market even in good economic times. Just based on the limited number of potential customers that have already made previous commitments to the high end. I would venture a guess the total US trap market is 35,000 shooters that would consider a commitment the size of a DT-11. Most already happy with some other product. Then again, if Bertetta could justify this new America trap entry, they must be confident.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 22, 2012 8:46 am 
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maltzahn wrote:
if Bertetta could justify this new America trap entry, they must be confident.


There's where you are thinking in non-global terms, Maltz. Beretta (correct spelling here) sells trap guns all over the world. The USA accounts for a fraction of their gun sales.
We tend to think that US shooters ARE the world, when it comes to guns, but that is not the case. I'm sure that Beretta is confident that world-wise sales of their new gun will be sufficient to justify it's production.
While sales of the DT-10 might have been slow in the USA, they obviously feel the market for this type of gun was sufficiently high world-wide to warrant the upgrade.

CSR, if that's the gun that presses your personal buttons, then get the gun! Doesn't matter if no one else in the country buys one for five years, I guarantee when you show up at the range with it, everyone will want to see/heft/shoot/slobber over/it. :wink:

By the way, my personal theory on why $10,000+ guns take so long for the shooting community to warm up to is this: there are 100 (maybe 1000?) times the number of trapshooters who can afford a $2000 BT-99, compared to those who can justify/afford a five-figure trap gun.
Thereto (as Steve is fond of saying), sales of the DT-11 class gun will ALWAYS be slower than that of the BT-99 class gun. Simple economics.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:40 pm 
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My point is and was....... if Beretta wants access to the US, American trap gun market it matters to have a design that is popular at the time. When marketing at the top of the trap gun food chain, design details are important. Guns designed specifically for Olympics, DTL, Wobble, live birds, whatever will never sell in any volume to American trapshooters. Right now, the manufacturer should have an high post adjustable rib undersingle. Adjustable ribs on the O/U barrels/combo set. Without, the price drops to mid-market.

Beretta is great at changing cosmetics and sticking to tried and true machanics on new models. Without seeing a DT-11 or reading any reviews, my guess the 11 will be a 10 with fully tapered bores as the major difference and some less noteable machanical improvements. If they fail to address the present demand on rib design, they will fail to sell DT-11's to trapshooters. If their only real trap shooting representitive, Big Leo, doesn't endorse or shoot winning scores with the new 11, the market gets even smaller than its already small market share. If they would get rid of the stupid and ugly blue cosmetic line on the reciever, even I would take the time to look at one. I don't care how well they perform, the 11 will never be thought of as better then Kguns, Pguns, SSietz, Allferman, Ljutic, Blaser or any model at the top of the food chain. Will never have better service or traveling smithies that stock a full range of parts. If for example, there are 5000 high end guns sold next year here in the US, Beretta will be lucky to net 10%. Would also guess the US is a much larger market than all of EU. There are many more serious tournament trap shooters here than all the trap Olympians combined world wide. I believe between American style trap, free gun ownership, and economics, we are the most important trap gun market. High grades are maybe 10 to 15% of that.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Tue Nov 27, 2012 10:14 pm 
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[quote="maltzahnwe are the most important trap gun market. High grades are maybe 10 to 15% of that. Maltz[/quote]

I disagree, on both statments. Only sales figures from all the trap gun manufacturers can shed light on the importance of the US market.

As far as $10K guns accounting for 10 - 15% of trap gun sales in the US, I think you are high by about a factor of ten. Go to any local shooting range that has at least one trap house. For every high grade gun you'll see, you'll see a hundred (literally) Brownings and Remington and Winchesters. At least that's been my experience in visiting many, many clubs around the country.
Not talking about doing a gun check at the Grand; the folks that are found there are but a small fraction of the total number of people who buy trap guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:01 am 
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mudpack wrote:
[quote="maltzahnwe are the most important trap gun market. High grades are maybe 10 to 15% of that. Maltz


I disagree, on both statments. Only sales figures from all the trap gun manufacturers can shed light on the importance of the US market.

As far as $10K guns accounting for 10 - 15% of trap gun sales in the US, I think you are high by about a factor of ten. Go to any local shooting range that has at least one trap house. For every high grade gun you'll see, you'll see a hundred (literally) Brownings and Remington and Winchesters. At least that's been my experience in visiting many, many clubs around the country.
Not talking about doing a gun check at the Grand; the folks that are found there are but a small fraction of the total number of people who buy trap guns.[/quote]

"Market" .... Dollars spent, not individual guns. Thats 15 1100's or 20 model 12's for every standard K-80 combo purchased. You need to get out a little farther to gain perspective. At least go to your own KS state shoot. Small compared to many, but there will be avid shooters there from several states. Just a short horse and buggy drive from Great Bend. Some of those shooter will have a couple hundred thousand dollars worth of high grade guns in their safe. Say hello to Rob Taylor for me and tell him Ive been happy with the last 2 Krieghoffs I purchased from him. Good guy to do business with.

Maltz

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:13 am 
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mudpack wrote:
erock_germany wrote:
my kids will (shoot) them. And their kids.

I wouldn't let even my KIDS shoot my grandkids......

Now, while it takes lots of money to become really good at the clay sports, you cannot buy good scores. Sounds self-contradictory, but it's true.....most of you guys will know what I mean.
Buy a top end gun (i.e. one that costs in the five figure area) for the pleasure it gives you to pull it out of its case and shoulder it, not because it will "make" you a better shooter. It won't. Only you can make you a better shooter.
Far as I'm concerned, pride of ownership is the only valid reason for buying a truly high end gun. ( The Brownings and Berettas will break targets just as readily as the K-guns and P-guns. ) And that is reason enough.


+1...!


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2012 10:38 pm 
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"Now, while it takes lots of money to become really good at the clay sports, you cannot buy good scores. Sounds self-contradictory, but it's true.....most of you guys will know what I mean.
Buy a top end gun (i.e. one that costs in the five figure area) for the pleasure it gives you to pull it out of its case and shoulder it, not because it will "make" you a better shooter. It won't. Only you can make you a better shooter.
Far as I'm concerned, pride of ownership is the only valid reason for buying a truly high end gun. ( The Brownings and Berettas will break targets just as readily as the K-guns and P-guns. ) And that is reason enough."

This makes lots of sense. One of my brothers, who is a very good shooter, used to shoot a Browning Citori. He bought a very nice K80 a few years back. I asked if his shooting improved and he said "No. It's not the gun, it's the shooter".


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:54 am 
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I think after reading all of your guys replies it boils down to if you want it and think you would enjoy owning a particular gun and can afford it, go ahead and get it. I know i have thousands and thousands of rounds left in my 682 with the correct maintanence. But i just want something a little more! Ive seen some perazzis i would love to own and might just have to pull the trigger on one.

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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:25 am 
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browning1985: Go for it. A sense of pride in owning a "high end" gun will make you feel better and that "feeling" just might produce a few more targets! Let us know what you decided on and submit a picture or two of your new toy. :) Good luck. Ed


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 Post subject: Re: Advantages of high end gun?
PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:02 am 
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Beretta will have the 692's stateside next March. Someone over there still cares what we will/want to buy shotgun wise!
This thread could read "disadvantages of a high end gun".




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