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 Post subject: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:58 am 
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This one is currently on gunbroker :-

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =342625474.

Apparently many people have pointed out that it is 110% fake, even Rigbys', on their Facebook page, say it's not one of ours and yet they keep bidding.

The saying that there is one born every minute must be especially true in this case.




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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:09 am 
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Okay, I'll bite.

How, besides the fact JH Rigby says it is a fake, would you determine it is fake?

I know nothing about English doubles, rifle or shotgun.

Thanks

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:13 am 
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I would also like to know how to pick out a fake. I never saw proof stamping that deep before. But that may mean nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:42 am 
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I see that the wood to metal fit is atrocious, at best, for a Rigby. The fitting of the metal to metal of the sideplate, is not precise for the Rigby's I have handled. The screws are out of alignment, and do not appear to be finely made, as a Rigby best would be. If this truly were a Rigby, I don't think Rigby would have allowed the gun to leave the premises. Not even as a tent peg.

IIRC, Rigby made best guns, and predominately, rifles. They may have had some lower grades, but I have never seen anything this low in quality.

To my poorly trained, tired eyes, it looks like a spanish gun, that has been stamped Rigby, and someone passed it off as real. JMHO.

Sans, please correct me if I am mistaken in my judgement of this gun.

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 5:48 am 
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I am not too familiar with Rigbys or Crescent but from the pics here goes :

Firstly the fit and finish of the lock plates is decidedly rough, certainly not the product of a 'London' gunmaker.
Early Rigbys had a distinctive style of lockplate, with a kind of scalloped top edge, nothing like this one. Rigby lock plates normally showed the '7 pin' set-up quite clearly.
The action style and 'locking bolt' are something I have never seen on an English made gun. The fireing pins look like an accident waiting to happen :shock:.
The action body appears huge for a .410, note how the barrels are shaped to match the breech face and also the excessive wall thickness at the breech. At a guess I would say this might be a 20g frame to start with. The given weight is very heavy for an English .410.
The trigger guard is double the thickness of that in an English (hand finished) gun. The shape of it looks like an unfinished casting. Also the guard tang is unusual in that a long tang is the norm in English guns, at least in the higher quality ones. Also the guard has been colour cased, normally this would be blacked.
The safety slide is 'agricultural' at best and looks exactly like that on the Crescent 410 'Quail Special'.
The forearm shape is not English and the wood quality is 'firewood' by Rigby standards.
Apart from all that the gun looks exactly like the Crescent .410,(there are pics of this online at http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=YqJb ... nt&f=false), Nothing like any Rigby I have ever seen.

Now the 'proof marks'.
These marks are not even close to London or Birmingham marks, not even a poor imitation.
Apart from that they are incomplete and totally contradictory.
For example the 'Not for Ball' inscription was used ONLY from 1875 to 1887.
The Nitro Proof Max mark was used from 1896 to 1904 ONLY. Note the abbreviation MAX was used not 'Maximum'.
There are many other marks that would be on a properly proofed English gun, and there is no sign of them on this one..
Apparently someone has used marks from two different periods and did not even do a good job on these.
The Rigby name and address is marked on the tubes, again most guns have that marked on the top rib. The address marked is 12 King Street, Rigbys were never there, they were at Number 32.
Probably I have missed something important but finally the Serial Number shown was used by Rigbys sometime between 1830 and 1835, and that is a loong time before this piece was produced.

870 Shooter, you got in before me but I spent too long on this story to change it now :mrgreen:
We basically agree that its a pos.
I had not thought Spanish but thats possible even although bad Spanish is better than this. :)


Last edited by Sans Peur on Thu May 30, 2013 7:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:28 am 
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I noted when I looked at the piece I saw the sellers feedback was like, 750 or something.

I wonder what it will be now?

Also wonder if Rigby has notified the seller or the site that the gun is not theirs?

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:30 am 
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Here is a picture of another I found that is comparable, but still quite different from the auction model:

Who are the poor suckers?????

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I am guessing this is typical of their work?:

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 6:57 am 
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The photographed Rigby is nice and probably typical but does not have the traditional old style Rigby lockplate, so it is a later gun.
There was a short period in the recent past when Rigby sold Spanish (best) guns under their name, sometimes you never know the antecedents of a particular gun and Spanish best guns are hard to distinguish from English at times..
I had kind of forgotten that part of Rigby's history until 870shooter's post regarding the Rigby/Crescent/Spanish 410 jogged my memory :)


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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:23 am 
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Clearly a Crescent. Rigby has publicaly disavowed the gun. More infro here
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb ... Post326359

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 10:44 am 
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I just looked at their Facebook page and saw no mention of the shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 11:06 am 
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If you go back to Rigby's Facebook thingy - on the right hand under posts by others ;-


Recent Posts by Others on John Rigby & Co.See All.















David Sutherland

One of your shotguns (not) here :- http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =342625474
1 · Yesterday at 9:16am

Click on the little flag by the 1 and that shows their response.

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 1:53 pm 
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The case color seems very strong considering the finish of the rest of the gun. Could ol' Ed the Torch be back in business?


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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:03 pm 
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Looking at the "case", it seems that if you buy a beatup old gun case and fit a label from a internet source that said case becomes the genuine thing.

The Rigby label is not even centered on the case cover!


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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Thu May 30, 2013 2:15 pm 
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Yes, there is a long established outfit in Olde England called Peter Dyson who will do you a nice leather case label for £15. Say $30 to the USA including post.
Selling that for $5000 is one helluva mark-up :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:51 am 
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So it finally sold at $5900 :shock: .
Is that a record for a faked up gun or is it normal on that auction :?


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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Tue Jun 04, 2013 6:15 pm 
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Yiiiiikes! :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: A Crescent .410 for only $5000 ??
PostPosted: Wed Jun 05, 2013 7:34 am 
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I guess that shows you the P T Barnum was correct in saying "There is one born every minute". It is too bad that these things happen. In the future, I would bet the winning bidder does his homework before sticking his neck out.




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