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 Post subject: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:21 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 01, 2004 10:25 am
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Location: Iowa
I want a tough 12 gauge for duck, geese, etc. one that I won't have to worry about getting wet or dirty.

I am partial to Remingtons, and have narrowed it down between the 870 Super Mag Camo or the 1187 Super Mag Camo.

Looks like the autoloader cost $300 more than the pump.

Is it worth it--and/or which one is less susceptible to the elements?




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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 6:49 pm 
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The 870 should be less susceptible to the elements. If you can stand shooting the 3.5" magnum shells in the gun, the gun will do its part. Personally, I would get the 3" magnum gun, but it's up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 7:20 pm 
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You know, I, personally, don't think that humans were intended to shoot 3.5 inch guns. The abundance of Mossberg 835s in the pawn shops for $175 seems to be a testament to that fact.

The recoil of a 3.5 inch gun is almost exactly 3 times that of a conventional 2 3/4 shotgun. Let me put that in perspective. If you shoot a 1 1/4 oz load that is a pretty good kick. Multiply that by three!!!!

However, they are kind of cool to watch with a shooter dangling his feet over the edges of the duckboard, trying to absorb some of the recoil down into the water.

ANYWAY, the reason for this post is that I think a pawn shop Mossberg 835, coupled with a recoil reducing stock, like a comp stock is a nice paring, and it will drive that recoil from a measured 62 to about 24 or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 8:59 pm 
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Joined: Sun Apr 04, 2004 7:14 pm
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Location: SoCal
A pump will always be more reliable just because of the shooter having to recycle in a new round. That don't mean auto's won't do the job though and with a he!! of allot less recoil if your crazy enough to shoot 3.5" shells. I've carried an auto (Remington) in just about any weather condition or terrain you can think of and never had a problem as long as I prep the gun to work properly in the condition I was to hunt in.
Even use it as a oar a couple of times(long story), it still was reliable!


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Mon Dec 06, 2004 9:58 pm 
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I've never really been around the 11-87 that much,and the few times I was the gun jammed constantly. But before everyone jumps on me the gun hadn't been cleaned in about 3 duck seasons. Needless to say it wasn't mine or it would have been cleaned. I'm not a big fan of remingtons but they are good guns. As far as a pump being more reliable in the muck that is probably true. You wold probably be suprised what a good auto-loader can take and keep on shooting though. If I where you I'd go with whatever fit the best. Regardless of a guns ability to take rough use if you can't hit with it you aren't going to kill any ducks.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:13 am 
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You know, I've seen guys empty autos on pheasant that were 15yds away and miss because they're so excited to get that lead in the air and bag a pheasant.

In fact, one of the guys got skunked in KS opening day!!!

The reason I bring this up on this topic is that these guys don't shoot too much and the excitement alone is almost unbearable. LOL

And those of us that shoot more than a few boxes a year know that focus on the target is the MOST important thing when hunting so, why add the complecation of operating a pump unless you can't afford or don't want to spend the $$$ on an auto?

You have to shoot, pump the action and either find the target you just missed or find a new one. This may seem easy enough but, that pheasant at 15yds was easier. LOL

I've never seen a beginner shoot skeet doubles with a pump either. I've only seen one guy even try and he was shooting behind the high house to get the shot off!!!

I'm sure somebody here is going to say: "I've seen guys break skeet with a pump" .... Ok, I believe you but, was this a beginner? Or even a guy that shoots only every hunting season?

I shoot skeet straights all the time but, I wouldn't even try with a pump.

I'm not just an auto advocate, I actually only own doubles myself but, my next shotgun, if it isn't a 20ga SxS will be an auto for the duck blind.

Hope I don't get too many mad here.... My opinions are my own. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 12:16 am 
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You know, I've seen guys empty autos on pheasant that were 15yds away and miss because they're so excited to get that lead in the air and bag a pheasant.

In fact, one of the guys got skunked in KS opening day!!!

The reason I bring this up on this topic is that these guys don't shoot too much and the excitement alone is almost unbearable. LOL

And those of us that shoot more than a few boxes a year know that focus on the target is the MOST important thing when hunting so, why add the complecation of operating a pump unless you can't afford or don't want to spend the $$$ on an auto?

You have to shoot, pump the action and either find the target you just missed or find a new one. This may seem easy enough but, that pheasant at 15yds was easier. LOL

I've never seen a beginner shoot skeet doubles with a pump either. I've only seen one guy even try and he was shooting behind the high house to get the shot off!!!

I'm sure somebody here is going to say: "I've seen guys break skeet with a pump" .... Ok, I believe you but, was this a beginner? Or even a guy that shoots only every hunting season?

I shoot skeet straights all the time but, I wouldn't even try with a pump.

I'm not just an auto advocate, I actually only own doubles myself but, my next shotgun, if it isn't a 20ga SxS will be an auto for the duck blind.

Hope I don't get too many mad here.... My opinions are my own. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:51 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 10:20 am 
Won't shoot skeet with a pump,huh?
You're missing out on a lot of fun.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 4:18 pm 
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If you intend to shoot even a few 3.5" shells, I'd suggest the 11-87 just for the differences in felt recoil vs the locked breech pump. As far as reliability, proper maintenance keeps the 11-87 ticking. My 11-87 SuperMag has been 100% reliable for 3" and 3.5" hulls. It sometimes hangs up for shells shorter than 3", but I did not buy the gun for use with the shorter stuff anyway. On the other hand, I've heard that some of the 870 SuperMags have had feeding problems.

By the way, Remington has a "barrel seal actuator" (essentially an extra ring) that blocks off the gas valve to increase reliability with the lower pressure of 2 3/4" shells. It helps, but does nothing to resolve the 2 3/4" shell in the 3 1/2" shell feed train.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 6:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:23 pm
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Location: Virginia Beach Virginia
I have a really old ('60's vintage) gun handbook that says autoloaders are best suited to disciplined hunters who place their shots carefully and pumps for excitable hunters because it forces them to slow down. Also I watch my son-in-law and his friend pick up doubles on both skeet and 5 stand with pumps; a Benelli Nova and Rem Wingmaster respectively. It really comes down to what you are most comfortable with.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 8:11 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:03 pm
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Location: way upstate ny
I don't understand the felt recoil issue. I am 5'4" tall and only 130lbs. I have shot the 3.5" kent faststeel all year for geese. I do not notice the recoil when hunting. I do when target shooting though, but why would you use 3.5" for target anyhow.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:08 pm 
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If you are going to go with an auto, look at the three B's - Browning, Beretta, or Benelli - not Remington. It just has too many small parts and IMO, is not as well made as the others. If you must go Remington, look for an older 1100, not the 1187.

In the pump, the 870 is hard to beat. It has been around for a loooong time and has a well-deserved reputation for reliability. When you add the fact that parts and accessories will be easy to find, it is a clear winner.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 12:30 am 
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Location: Dallas, TX
NewToSkeet,

That is an interesting point... Hmmm.

I guess if someone doesn't shoot alot, that might make a difference. ( to slow them down )

I guess, with my hard head, I don't consider a pump to be anything but an annoyance but, that may indeed make a difference to somebody who only shoots a few boxes a year.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:18 pm 
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jwoolf wrote:
I've never seen a beginner shoot skeet doubles with a pump either.


I did, about half a lifetime ago.

Everyone was a beginner at some time or other, a lot of people seem so afraid to try something or "look foolish" first time out.

If you don't want to shoot a pump on the game, don't.

If you really want to try, and learn to, don't let someone else tell you you can't.

jwoolf wrote:
I've only seen one guy even try and he was shooting behind the high house to get the shot off!!!

I'm sure somebody here is going to say: "I've seen guys break skeet with a pump" .... Ok, I believe you but, was this a beginner?


As an old pump gun shooter, I can say that I was given some good advice in 1970, when I was 18, by an old pump gun shooter.

I tried my 1st round of skeet with a pump, an M12 field grade with a Polychoke, in 1970 and he told me "don't try to be fast, just work on your technique and concentrate on breaking both your doubles, if you stay with this, the speed will come".

I only had that M12 at the time, wanted to shoot skeet, so that was it, I didn't care what someone else had to say about it. There was never even a consideration of not to try it because I was a beginner.

The old shooter's advice worked for me. That summer, when I started out, I wasn't too "slick" (though I never shot them behind the high house) but after a few weekends, the speed did come up, by the end of the summer, I surprised myself that I could cycle the M12 quite quickly.

Even though I'm not very athletic or coordinated, I can cycle my 870's fast enough that it surprised me the 1st time I saw a video of me shooting skeet doubles. The video shows the muzzle doesn't deviate from the swing on the 2nd target when I cycle the action and I take the 2nd target as quickly as when I use my o/u's.

I will shoot my o/u for skeet but I still love to use my pumps for the game.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Wed Dec 08, 2004 8:32 pm 
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I don't have either. I started out hunting ducks with a model 12 pump and later switched to a o/u. I do have a remington 1100.
Care and maintence will determine the reliability of either of the guns. If you keep them clean and lubricated both will work fine. The auto actually probably has more power to handle a tight shell or whatever than the pump.

For me it is now easier and faster to let the auto do the loading. But when I shot the pump it was not a problem. Took it out this weekend though and could not pump as well as I used to.

I think in general the pump is a little easier to hunt safe with, because you can open the action and leave 2 shells in the magazine when you need to set the gun down, move, whatever. I worry with the autoloader with the action back. The remingtons autos seem to need the action slammed shut. Have hunted with people that eased it down and the gun did not work.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Fri Dec 10, 2004 5:13 pm 
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RemingtonII wrote:
You know, I, personally, don't think that humans were intended to shoot 3.5 inch guns. The abundance of Mossberg 835s in the pawn shops for $175 seems to be a testament to that fact.

The recoil of a 3.5 inch gun is almost exactly 3 times that of a conventional 2 3/4 shotgun. Let me put that in perspective. If you shoot a 1 1/4 oz load that is a pretty good kick. Multiply that by three!!!!

However, they are kind of cool to watch with a shooter dangling his feet over the edges of the duckboard, trying to absorb some of the recoil down into the water.

ANYWAY, the reason for this post is that I think a pawn shop Mossberg 835, coupled with a recoil reducing stock, like a comp stock is a nice paring, and it will drive that recoil from a measured 62 to about 24 or so.



Well said.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington: Autoloader vs Pump
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 7:45 pm 
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Jwoolf - here's the other side of the coin; I have shot O/U or auto's all summer, we passed around my new gun, the 11-87, last time out. Both my son-in-law and his friend hit skeet with it no problem. Then I tried his friend's 870 and didn't shuck it after the first bird. They say the look on my face was something as I watched the second bird fly unmolested and kept jerking the trigger! And it wasn't even doubles! :D We all went back to our familiar guns and proceeded to have a good day.



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