Shotgunworld.com

Some articles I've located on the net concerning this approach to shotgunning - I sure like the concept:

http://www.ospschool.com/know10.html#instinctive

http://www.journalnet.com/articles/2003 ... oors05.txt

http://www.dto.com/shooting/article.jsp?articleid=692

as applied to archery
http://www.hunting101.com/gunsandbows/b ... lls008.htm

Anybody care to share any comments, practical experience, or other links?

I was never tought to aim a shotgun, just told to hit what I shoot at. I have been an instinctive shooter since the get go. Works great for upland. I had trouble with longer pass shots when I began waterfowling and trap shooting so I switched my foregrip hold to wher emy index finger points down the barrel. I also never have lead my targets, I pull though them. Does it work or me? Sure does. Best trap score: 25 from the 27yd line(probably luck, i average about 23), best skeet: 24 with an auto, best clays score: 45/50. I can't recall ever neding more than a single box of ammo for a days hunt. Instinctive shooting is one of those things that is hard to learn, you either do it or you don't.

In my opinion, "instinctive" shooting, also known as the Churchell method, is pure garbage.

To prove my point, have you ever seen a definition of the term, instinctive shooting? No, you have not. That is because its proponents don't know exactly what they're doing. If it cannot be defined, does it really exist? I think not.

Even the shooters who supposedly use the instinctive method, cannot explain how they lead and hit crossing targets at both 15 and 40 yards. Firing when the barrel reaches the leading edge of the target would take a swing speed approaching the speed of light on long yardage, crossing targets.

The necessary lead would also be different for targets shot at identical yardage but traveling in different directions - incomming, outgoing, quartering, etc.

Either swing speed is varied or forward lead is varied. Neither is intutive; both have to be learned and taken into consideration as one acquires the "correct" sight picture, deemed corerct by the results.

Shoot Well,
Rollin

I think it's a question of symantics. Sure, you have to learn the mechanics of swing and lead, and know how the gun patterns, to actually hit something. But once you absorb these factors the shooting becomes "intuitive." You don't actively think of these factors when you shoulder the gun, track the target, and blast it. If you do, or I should say, if I do, I miss the target. It is when I am concentrating most on doing things "right" that I miss the most targets. If I just "go with it" I tend to be more effective.

I will also argue that there are "natural born" shooters out there, who can pick up a gun and do better than some folks who've worked at it for years. There is certainly something different about the Buffalo Bills, Annie Oaklies, and (more recently) Bob Mundens of the world than most of the shooters I know... (I'm talking about the kind of people that can hit 10,000 wooden nickels thrown into the air without a miss - with a rifle or handgun.)

-- Sam

I don't know whether to call it instinctive shooting, natural born hand-eye coordination or pure magic, but some people can just shoot and not be able to explain how they do it. For example, we just had a young lady transfer into our unit that is a shooting wonder. She had never held any kind of firearm prior to going to basic training (city girl) and she fired expert with M-16 and 9MM pistol. Yesterday I took her to the skeet range with me and let her use my 12 gauge CD semi-auto. I watched this young lady shoot 23/25, 24/25, and 23/25 in her first three rounds, and then state that she didn't want to do this anymore because it was boring . She then proceeded to shoot 21 from the 16 yd line at international trap. This girl is scary!!!!---AFG

AFGunner, is she single?

Sander,Unfortunately no. Thankfully her husband is a nice guy or I could get to hate him. ---AFG

Did you even read my post? I know the mrchanics of my shooting. The ability to shoot well came first, then I paid attention to how I did it so I could tell people. Whenever I read instructions on how tp "properly" lead targets I think "that is a lot of bother just to shoot something." Me and my garbage shooting defy you to drop as many birds as quickly. It takes me half the time to "get on target" as my hunting companions.

More good articles on Instinctive/Point shooting:

http://www.alliancemartialarts.com/pointshooting.htm

Rollin;

I for one disagree with you. For mainly all the reasons you described that you don't believe in instinct shooting, I do! I've been hunting and shooting since hector was a pup! He's been dead nigh on to 40 years now, and he was a danged old dog then when he died! I can't tell you how far I lead or pull ahead on a passing shot, quartering shot, a straightaway shot, different angled shots, etc, etc. I guess that's why I call it instinct since I never have had to make a conciencious effort or detirminate aim while shooting a shotgun. Bird gets up, I raise the gun and it goes bang at just the right time and place. Not all the time, nobody's perfect! Only perfect man on earth was crucified! You got to call it something, if it isn't instinct I'm open to reccomendations! That's what I call it. I shoot more or less the same way in trap, skeet and sporting clays. Usually when my scores go to hell I just have to quit trying to aim and lead and just shoot the damned rock. See the rock, shoot it!! What do you call it?? Many moons ago while in basic training at Fort Lost in the Woods MO they tried to teach us, you guessed it, Instinct shooting! They taught those of us who didn't already shoot that way how to hit half-dollar and silver dollar size targets that were hand thrown with BB guns. I was pretty good at it then too. See the target, shoot it! Instinct in my book, whether I can define it in finite terms or not. I've one more question for you. If a tree falls to the ground in the woods and no one is there to hear it, is there really any sound or not?? I wasn't there to DEFINE it, but I'm betting there indeed was sound, defination or not. Call it what you want!

BP

This post is so old I doubt if Rollin will ever come back to read it.

I think "instinctive" shooting is predominantly the subconscious mind at work,once it's programmed through the conscious mind, it tends to take over, and does a much better job than the conscious mind, it's much quicker to process info, and tends to have a more direct link to our muscular/nervous system, it's kind of like RAM in a computer, vs. having to go out and get it off the Hard Drive(conscious mind), instinctive shooting is basically letting a programmed subconcious mind do it's thing while we try to get out of it's way, when we try to "think" the shot, the concious mind hinders and slows the subconcious, it's also called ITI (instinctive target interception) i believe.


If there's no misspelled words in that diatribe, that would be an absolute miracle!

You mean miracAL, eh?

this is a great summary. all I can add is that if you think about leads and swings after you call for the bird, you'll certainly miss. the subconscious takes over full control.

anyone serious about this topic should read W. Timothy Gallweys The Inner Game Of Tennis., a book on how to get out of your own way.

It's been fun reading the various responses to this thread over time. It's pretty much Pro or Con on this one - not too many in-betweeners...

I do believe in instinctiviness in many areas areas of life. I don't know that we have to put any term to it, it's just learning through practice, as I see it. I once wrote the thought of how you would try to hit something passing by you with a rock, thrown from your hand. You don't think "Okay, here it comes, it's moving pretty fast - I better lead that object with my rock or it's gonna' go behind it - ...". No, ya throw the damn rock and if ya miss ya try again next time and automatically change your timing. Ya keep doing it until it's just instinct. Practice makes perfect.

Here's another area I'm familiar with that's very similar in attitude to this idea. It's learning Morse Code. I happen to be an Amateur Radio Operator too (KA0ZSU) and Morse Code is one area an operator must learn in order to gain more desirable licenses, allowing additional capabilities. Well, Morse Code works the same way - it's another language really. In order to get really good at it you must practice a lot, and you must NEVER learn the 'double translation' method of learning to receive Morse Code. Double translation is where you hear the tones, figure it out in your mind, then write it down on paper - this is a no-no if an operator ever wants to achieve anything beyond about 15 words per minute - it just can't be done any quicker this way. The true way to learn is by instinct - hear the words & phrases in those dits and dahs, not letters. Over time, anybody with the desire can achieve 50 to 60 words per minute.

It's an instinct thing...

Gotta agree with Tom on the Rock thing, and the Morse code thing, (N8GGF), just about when I got to the point where I was hearing words, I quite practicing.

I was a better shot at 13 than I am now at 42, and it is because I never "learned" or was taught to shoot, I just shot.
Now that I really want to shoot good at 42, I have been doing too musc thinking, gotta get back to just shooting.
(and yes, I know I don't have the reflexes or eyes I had at 13)

Lance

I coach little league baseball. I look at shooting the same way I look at batting. You can learn the method and the technique but when its time to hit the ball you can't sit there and calculate the speed, location, plane, and spin of the ball and then hit it. Your eye sees the ball and your brain instantly calculates where the ball should be and when it should be there. All while you are in the midst of swinging the bat. Why is it hard to believe that there are people who can do the same calculations and determine without having a definitive answer of how much lead for how much speed, location, plane and spin... Your eye sees the clay pigeon and your brain does the calculation instantly as you are in the midst of your swing.

Just like baseball you can train your eye and your brain via practice and drills. You also, like baseball, have better results if you have good fundamentals. And just like baseball, some are just going to be naturals at it.

going from an instinctive shooting topic to amateur radio operators,nice to see there's a few amateur radio guy's in here.

Hi KA0ZSU
Hi N8GGF

UltraMag,(KB7HKN)

I love this topic and have preached about it to several generations of shooters.

Let me first say that in the early the 1950's I started shooting archery. Sights???? What the h*ll were they? We just didn't have them. You started shooting and after the first two arrows you automatically made adjustments to hit the target, then took that info to the field and applied it. Of course you had to development a shooting technique and should have had some basic instruction (I didn't) but h*ll the indians didn't have sights and they kicked Custers *ss.

When I finally did find a sighting system (glue a strip of cork on the bow and use straight pins) I couldn't adjust to it and was MUCH better shooting "instinct". I can still (50 years later) amaze some of my young friends shooting their "Compound Bows" when I get out my old long bow (no sights) and hit the same targets they are hitting. lol:

But anyway I digress,
I started shooting a .22 at about 10. Got some basic saftey instructions but was allowed to wander over our 65 acres and shoot at most anything I wanted. I was given a 410 when I was 12, again was given saftey instruction but not much else.
My uncle took me out to shoot clays and told me to sight down the gun talked about lead and wind and swing and follow thru and HE LOST ME, TOO MUCH TO LEARN. I couldn't hit crap. I didn't break one bird.

I couple of weeks later I was walking to our barn and caught about 6 pheasants running into one of the hay fields. Ran in got the 410 and took off. The 410 was a Stevens bolt action with a clip. I wasn't 10 ft into the field and a cock-bird flushed, I pulled up fired and down it went as I got close to the spot where it landed it took off again, I pulled up and fired again and down it went. Man my heat was pumping as I loaded another round. I went over to where it landed the second time and there it was, a dead hen. I was devastated. I went back to where it had fallen the first time and there was my dead cock-bird. I had to tell my dad what I did and he chewed me out royaly. At 12 I was sorry but I was still proud that I made those 2 shots. A year later I got a 20 gage and then pheasants were not safe on our farm. I had found that if I just looked at the bird, pulled up a shot that I hardly ever missed, if I tried to aim I missed all the time.

My whole point of boring you with this story is that I believe instinct shooting is something you either HAVE or DO NOT. If you DO NOT you can still learn to shoot very well but instinct shooting is not taught. Asking an instinctive shooter what he does is a waste of time because he can't explain it and when he does try to analize it he can easily loose it. I've had lots of guys try to tell me what I'm doing wrong when I miss, I keep my ear plugs in and just nod.

I love shotguns but I shoot clays for fun, when I start to worry about scores I miss............so why worry.