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 Post subject: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 5:47 pm 
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Location: Dyersburg TN
This shotgun is cycling 1 1/4 but nothing else. With all other shots, the next round is coming out before the empty is leaving. That tells me the cycle is to slow. I've closed the ajusting rings completely closed and still no change. The gun is cleaned from a reblue and all gas holes are cleaned out. Does anyone have a clue what the problem could be?



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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 10:22 pm 
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OSR wrote:
This shotgun is cycling 1 1/4 but nothing else. With all other shots, the next round is coming out before the empty is leaving. That tells me the cycle is to slow. I've closed the ajusting rings completely closed and still no change. The gun is cleaned from a reblue and all gas holes are cleaned out. Does anyone have a clue what the problem could be?


My guess is that the re-blue affected the tolerances/clearances inside the receiver and greatly slowed down the action. That's why it takes such a stout load to cycle the action.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Sep 27, 2013 11:14 pm 
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Location: Dyersburg TN
I can't see that being even a possibility. I've been in business for 14 years and experience tells me different. I've been doing some research and there's a couple things I can't find. One is how many gas ports and what size. I have 3 holes ported with sizing being .0126. I'm thinking there are only 2 holes but I can't remember and can't find any info on it.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 6:28 am 
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Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2007 3:44 pm
Posts: 1750
Location: Michigan
I think you should look at the shell stop's. The gun should cycle shells no matter how fast the action moves.

It sounds as if the fresh shell is released long before the bolt extracts and ejects the spent case. That is a timing issue with the shell stop's.


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:24 am 
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OSR,

I did a little research and found out that the J.C. Higgins Model 60 was manufactured by High Standard from about 1960 to 1966 and is the same gun as the High Standard Supermatic. The way the gas system operates is kind of weird and complicated compared to modern gas autoloaders.

There are a whole bunch of washers involved. I don't know much about them, but I found a thread about the High Standard Supermatic that has a good picture and description of it. He also mentions the gun having 6 gas ports. You might want to take a look at it. It might be helpful to you. Good luck. Here's a link to the thread.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=103591

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:26 am 
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High Standard built some of the best pumps and worst semi autos of all time.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:51 pm 
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Virginian wrote:
High Standard built some of the best pumps and worst semi autos of all time.


anytime someone asks about these guns you use this same quote every time.....it get's a little old. if you don't have anything to add that might help the poster why bother posting? and they aren't the "worst auto-loaders of all time". i own two and they shoot just fine, you just have to know how to set them up to work right.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:09 pm 
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OSR wrote:
I can't see that being even a possibility. I've been in business for 14 years and experience tells me different. I've been doing some research and there's a couple things I can't find. One is how many gas ports and what size. I have 3 holes ported with sizing being .0126. I'm thinking there are only 2 holes but I can't remember and can't find any info on it.


I'm somewhat confused about your comment. If you have the gun, why can't you just look and see how many gas ports it has?

Secondly, the size of the ports being only .0126" sounds awfully SMALL to me. I measured the diameter of a standard paper clip wire and it measures .036" diameter. It's hard to imagine that the gun has gas ports that tiny that a paper clip wouldn't even go into the hole.

Can you provide more information. Has the gun ever worked properly while you've had it? If so, what ammunition were you using at that time? What has been done to the gun since it last worked properly other than the re-blue job?

It's very difficult for us to guess what's wrong with your gun with such limited info to go on.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:48 pm 
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http://shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=120369 this thread goes over alot of what problems you may have. i believe it has nothing to do with the gas ports. and the gas port holes are about the size of a toothpick or ear swab stick. they are plenty big, and there is three that feed from the barrel into the gas regulator then 4-6 (depending on the model) that feed into the spring/wavy washer area to provide blow back for the piston.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:01 pm 
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Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 3:31 am
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To correct a couple of statements......
the Model 60 was made from 1952 to 1956. These were the first gas operated shotguns made. The early guns used a coiled spring instead of the wavy washers used in the later Model 66 and High Standard Supermatics, but the principle was the same. The gas adjuster acted as a relief valve....for heavy loads they dumped a lot of gas, so the adjuster was threaded in just enough to put the springs under light compression. For lighter loads, the adjuster was threaded in much tighter, diverting more gas towards the piston.

Based on your description, it sounds like something else is happening.

First you should make sure the recoil spring base at the receiver is installed correctly. The flanged part should face forward and the cylindrical (round) part should be in contact with the receiver....it can be installed either way, but when reversed, it adds enough drag to slow the action down and make the gun FTF constantly. The shell release at the magazine is activated by the bolt's rearward travel and if the bolt is being slowed by the spring base installed backwards, it will throw the shell release timing off.

Another possibility....you have to depress the bolt release button in order to load rounds into the tube. If, at some point a heavy handed shooter has managed to force a round into the magazine without depressing the bolt release, the lifter mechanism may have been bent upward. This will also cause random cycling problems.....in some cases the shell will release with the lifter partially blocking the tube opening.

On High Standard autoloaders, it was the responsibility of the shooter to set up the guns for the rounds being fired. This may have required more brainwork than some owners were capable of giving.

Setting one up for light target loads then firing a few heavy loads could result in the action bar being bent or broken or even worse, damage to the release system or receiver.

And I agree...it is tiresome to constantly hear from some about how "High Standard made the best pumps and worst autoloaders, ever". I think it says more about the gunsmiths of that era than it does about the High Standard automatics.

My advise is when you hear those words cross one's lips.....
Run, don't walk, to the nearest exit. :)

You don't want that person working on your High Standard autoloader.


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:06 pm 
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zavala wrote:
Virginian wrote:
High Standard built some of the best pumps and worst semi autos of all time.

anytime someone asks about these guns you use this same quote every time.....it get's a little old. if you don't have anything to add that might help the poster why bother posting? and they aren't the "worst auto-loaders of all time". i own two and they shoot just fine, you just have to know how to set them up to work right.

You are correct, I shall endeavor to be more creative. I'm sorry, but my opinion is that High Standard semi autos are extremely bad examples of the breed. You may have a couple that work, but their awful reputation was earned. They are the only gas autos I ever worked on that I could not get to run reliably with anything but a few select loads, and they broke parts frequently.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Dyersburg TN
Ok, I really do thank all of you for your help. I started back on it first thing this morning and this is what I can up with. I knew it was a gas issue so I took everything back down to start over. I unscrewed the gas rings to half. Shot it with 11/8. Still doing the same thing. Shot it with 11/4 worked on single shot but not two rounds. So I took it back down and noticed gas blowing by the top of the mag tube. Changed the mag tube out and shot 1oz lights as fast as I could pull the trigger.

These are great gun, so great that the Remington veramax used the same concept, modernized no doubt but still the same.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Wed Oct 02, 2013 8:31 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:52 pm
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OSR wrote:
So I took it back down and noticed gas blowing by the top of the mag tube. Changed the mag tube out and shot 1oz lights as fast as I could pull the trigger.


Just to be clear... Is the gas leaking in between the mag tube and that threaded lug that the spacers/compression washers are fit to and compressed on?

A new mag tube brings it closer to tolerance to reduce leaks there. but if is leaking around the piston, would this have an effect on cycling? The initial blast of air would cycle action and once gas escaped, the action would continue to cycle.

The reason I ask is because, 1. Where would you get a new mag tube??? 2. If a nut was made to hold an O-Ring there, would that solve problem also?


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 6:57 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:52 pm
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Ok, pulled it out and checked it out. I'm guessing that when you say you noticed it was leaking around the mag tube, you mean this?

Image

http://m1289.photobucket.com/albumview/ ... g.html?o=0

So if the magazine tube is out of tolerance,

1. Where to get a new mag tube? Numrich shows in stock but they don't have,
2. Can an O-ring be placed between barrel/mag tube and wooden handguard?


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Dyersburg TN
The easiest way I can see to fix is to screw the tube down tight, then unscrew one full turn. With a solid bar or even a socket that will fit the end but doesn't go all the way through. The tube gets smaller at the barrel lug. Drive it down till you swell the tube at the barrel lug. It will create a tight seal so no gas will come out. That's what I would have done if the other tube I had didn't fit tight.

When I put the new tube in I had to screw it in and out several times for the barrel lug to squeeze the tube in so it would screw all the way down.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Thu Oct 03, 2013 11:17 pm 
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OSR wrote:
These are great gun, so great that the Remington VersaMax used the same concept, modernized no doubt but still the same.

I believe you are getting a bit carried away. The Ford Model T and the Ferrari are based on the same concept, but hardly comparable. What's more, the Model T worked. I do not know many people who would classify the HS semi autos as great guns, and you do not even have yours working correctly yet. You are a marketing man's dream.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:37 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 16, 2013 6:52 pm
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OSR, I want to thank you for taking the time to not only figure out your own problem and share with the rest of us, but you also gave constructive instruction on how to salvage my own mag tube! I don't know how I would have replaced it, short of machining some brass tubing! I saw the carbon collecting there but never would have made the connection that this was the gas that was slowing down my bolt...

And I wholeheartedly agree with you, these are GREAT GUNS! Just as Enzo built his reputation on the pioneer advances made by Henry Ford, nearly all gas operated shotguns are based on this one. I'm impressed with the fit and finish of these and the parts are nearly all machined!!! And while we both might be a marketer's wet dream, to make a shotgun today, to this standard, would cost over $2,000.

If I had any complaint about this shotgun, it is that it is so damn heavy! It is just built solid, made to last. I understand the concept, this was built for a person that could only afford 1 shotgun and it had to last... I'd say 60 years is a long time...

I'll get my shotgun repaired and tested tomorrow, will post results here...


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:15 am 
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As many of the factory stocks were improperly shaped to help with recoil the transition to recoil being the reason for barrel mounting the sling stud began


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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:04 am 
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I would also like to point out that the Remington Sportsman 58 gas operated semi automatic shotgun debuted in 1956, four years before the High Standard C-100 Supermatic arrived. The Sportsman 58 and the later 878 were rather popular before they were both eclipsed by the 1100, and many are still popular with some on clay pigeons, especially skeet.

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 Post subject: Re: JC Higgins 60 cycle problem
PostPosted: Fri Oct 04, 2013 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2012 9:14 pm
Posts: 191
Location: Dyersburg TN
Virginian wrote:
OSR wrote:
These are great gun, so great that the Remington VersaMax used the same concept, modernized no doubt but still the same.

I believe you are getting a bit carried away. The Ford Model T and the Ferrari are based on the same concept, but hardly comparable. What's more, the Model T worked. I do not know many people who would classify the HS semi autos as great guns, and you do not even have yours working correctly yet. You are a marketing man's dream.


What you mean not working correctly yet, did you not read that replacing the mag tube and its working perfectly. Name one gun ever made that parts don't brake and I can probably tell you 15 different parts I've changed in one. Metal is meant to brake and will no matter what.

And now you bring up the 58, 4 years before the high c-100. Well the c-100 is a JC 60. The 60 was, is, and will always be the first gas operated shotgun made. You take any gas gun made today and they've had 60 year or data to go by and they're still junk. I've got a box full, 50+ gas pistons from x2/gold. And don't even get me started on benilli. One of the worst guns made to date. Stamped out parts that are over hardened causing stress breaks, one of the worst ejector designs I've ever seen, and a blind pin holding the extractor in. Who in the world would put a blind pin to hold an extractor, makes no since to me.

Here's what it boils down to, time tested 1100/11-87 is the model T and all these new aluminum and plastic guns made today is your ferrair, over priced scrap metal.



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