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 Post subject: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 3:50 am 
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Please look at these two and tell me what the difference is between them.

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,690 fps, Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 10,500 psi 3/8 inch felt spacer under shot

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,665 fps Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 8,900psi, 1/4 inch felt spacer under shot

What this telling me is the felt spacer made the dramatic drop in chamber pressure? This does not sound right to me and I have found countless examples of this on their reloading data website. I sent them examples but never get a response. I have loaded many lead shot shells using their data. Now I am starting to wonder if they are safe.




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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:34 am 
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swamptoad wrote:
Please look at these two and tell me what the difference is between them.

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,690 fps, Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 10,500 psi 3/8 inch felt spacer under shot

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,665 fps Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 8,900psi, 1/4 inch felt spacer under shot

What this telling me is the felt spacer made the dramatic drop in chamber pressure? This does not sound right to me and I have found countless examples of this on their reloading data website. I sent them examples but never get a response. I have loaded many lead shot shells using their data. Now I am starting to wonder if they are safe.

Alliant is semi-infamous for having at least one Steel load published and then quietly pulled. It was a 2.75" hull, 7/8 steel shot and 12 grains more Steel powder than the next 1oz load using the same components.

The pulled load was listed at 1765fps@9000psi, the one ounce is 1480@9500. Sometimes even the big guys mess up...

What is more interesting today is that at the top of the page where you go those two loads is another with the same components but only 37 grains of Steel, going 1510@10400.

--- 1 - Steel -1,510 - Fed 209A - Steel - Ballistic Products #3221230 - 37 - 10,400
Additional Notes:
1/4 inch felt spacer under shot



I think someone has some explaining to do.


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:55 am 
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swamptoad wrote:
Please look at these two and tell me what the difference is between them.

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,690 fps, Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 10,500 psi 3/8 inch felt spacer under shot

3 Fed 0.090 Intergral BW, 1oz Steel shot, 1,665 fps Fed 209A primer, 45 grains Steel powder, Ballistic Products #3221230 wad, 8,900psi, 1/4 inch felt spacer under shot

What this telling me is the felt spacer made the dramatic drop in chamber pressure? This does not sound right to me and I have found countless examples of this on their reloading data website. I sent them examples but never get a response. I have loaded many lead shot shells using their data. Now I am starting to wonder if they are safe.

I'll be interested to see some of the answers you get. I, however, believe the shot card may make a difference. Crimp depths in lead loading do, changing how tightly things are held in place. Wouldn't a thicker over shot card have similar qualities?

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:34 am 
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Safe???? You gotta be kidding? The last thing I would worry about with Alliant.

Alliant has the BEST steel data going, it's the other sources that you should be concerned with.

Unless I missed something the difference is the thickness of the felt spacers correct?

With the 1/4" spacer you will have a less firm crimp and initially that will give the powder gas a bit more area to expand into.

The 3/8" spacer takes up just enough room to bring the pressure and the velocity up a bit. The difference may seem like a lot, but it really isn't that big of a deal.

25 FPS is a nothing, and 1,600 PSI is a moderate increase.

What this demonstrates is how much a proper wad column height can affect a load. Not EVERY load just some loads.

You have to remember that Steel powder is the slowest burning shotshell powder that we have access to. It can be more sensitive to proper crimps. Steel hunting loads are not to be confused with lead target loads.

This load might have two different spacer wad thicknesses, for different pellet sizes, an ounce of 3's & 4's take up less room than an ounce of BB's. Maybe Alliant is giving you some options. At least that's what I would assume.

This is also another example of what happens with internal ballistics and why they can't be predicted.

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 6:42 pm 
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That was just one example. I have more that that. Next example is the load below the one I posted and it lists the exact same same load (no felt spacers) and 48 grains for 1700 fps and 8200 psi and the next load lists 47 grains and 1720 fps and 8900 psi. How does that work? So less powder shoots steel faster? I am not understanding this and I until they explain it to me I am not using their data.


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:41 pm 
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swamptoad wrote:
That was just one example. I have more that that. Next example is the load below the one I posted and it lists the exact same same load (no felt spacers) and 48 grains for 1700 fps and 8200 psi and the next load lists 47 grains and 1720 fps and 8900 psi. How does that work? So less powder shoots steel faster? I am not understanding this and I until they explain it to me I am not using their data.



Wrong. Read the full recipe. Each of those are also of the 1/4" or 3/8" variety shot card.

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 7:50 pm 
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Image

Notice is says *see note under the spacers heading?

Image

And

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 8:12 pm 
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This is the same situation that you have with the first loads you posted. The crimp and the wad column count for more than you are giving them credit for. The differences in velocity and pressure, you are looking at for this load are insignificant.

You could probably test these loads 10 times and get the results to swap positions with pressure and velocity and all different mixes.

A 1 grain difference with Steel powder at 47 or 48 grains is again, insignificant, and the results obviously follow.

Until you sit at a pressure test rig for awhile, this stuff never makes sense, and the results can be confusing.

The only thing consistent about shotshell ballistics is its' inconsistency.

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 10:54 pm 
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I see what you mean. Weird how a little bit of felt spacer would cause an increase of pressure 700 psi. I sent some lead buckshot in for testing and some I used a cork wad to adjust the column and some I used DAP to seal the crimp. When I got the results back they showed basically the same across the board. What surprised me was the velocity was higher and the psi was lower than the published load data I used (from BP). Well I learned something today. I never would have thought a piece of felt that weighs nothing would do this. My other question, where do you get RS 3" SAM1 wads other than reloading specialties web site? I searched the web but found nothing. Also, could I get rid of the 1/4 inch felt if I was using a .030-.040 overshot card? Or would it not matter if I used both?


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:12 pm 
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I have always has to get RS SAM1 wads from R.S., I have not found any other sources.

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:44 pm 
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I'm still waiting for someone to answer this one:

8 grains less powder, 155 fps less velocity, 1500psi higher, same 1/4 felt spacer.

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:01 am 
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That's flat out a typo there.


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:58 am 
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Republican wrote:
That's flat out a typo there.

Could be, but which is the typo?

That load, along with the others, has been there for as long as I have been looking at that data.

Alliant apparently considers it to be correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 11:00 am 
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OK, so it looks like the first issue has been cleared up.
dogchacer37 did a nice job of explaining, so thanks Mark, you saved me a bunch of typing.
The recipe Cerberus brings up certainly looks like it doesn't belong with the rest, but I have to get with Ben and root through the data to figure what is up with that. It apears safe at this point, so no major alarm is needed. We could guess what the error is, but I don't see the point in that.
Thanks for the feedback on this.
Be safe, and shoot well,
Paul

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:37 pm 
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Alliant Reloading wrote:
OK, so it looks like the first issue has been cleared up.
dogchacer37 did a nice job of explaining, so thanks Mark, you saved me a bunch of typing.
The recipe Cerberus brings up certainly looks like it doesn't belong with the rest, but I have to get with Ben and root through the data to figure what is up with that. It apears safe at this point, so no major alarm is needed. We could guess what the error is, but I don't see the point in that.
Thanks for the feedback on this.
Be safe, and shoot well,
Paul

Paul, thanks for the timely feedback on these items.

I look forward to hearing from you with an update, and maybe your pointers on where I can find some Unique!


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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 12:45 pm 
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Regarding the 37gr higher pressure, lower velocity load, Ben checked the root data and determined that it is an 1-1/8oz load. It was actually correct in our print media, but didn't make the jump to digital correctly.
The website has been updated.
Thanks for spotting the error Cerberus. Hopefully no birds were lost to low velocity there.
Thank you for using our American made shotshell powders.
Best,
Paul

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 Post subject: Re: Alliant reloading data
PostPosted: Mon Jan 06, 2014 9:03 pm 
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Alliant Reloading wrote:
Regarding the 37gr higher pressure, lower velocity load, Ben checked the root data and determined that it is an 1-1/8oz load. It was actually correct in our print media, but didn't make the jump to digital correctly.
The website has been updated.
Thanks for spotting the error Cerberus. Hopefully no birds were lost to low velocity there.
Thank you for using our American made shotshell powders.
Best,
Paul

Paul,

I noticed that the data on the website has been updated as of today. Thanks to you and Ben for getting it straightened out. I probably should have sent the information to Alliant when I saw it.

I have been a huge fan of Steel for all my steel waterfowl loads and will continue to use it, nothing else comes close.

It would also be great if you guys could expand that data to include some of the newer wads and hulls that are available.

And don't worry, I don't lose any birds that I don't deserve to lose... :wink:




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