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 Post subject: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:50 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 pm
Posts: 52
Location: The Desert, utah
I pay about 5 bucks a box at wally world for these shells, (Winchester AA light target load, 12ga, 2 3/4", 2 3/4 dr. eq., 1 1/8 oz., 7 1/2 shot). For me these shells are wonderful, I shoot well and they pattern well for me and I was wondering if any of you reloading guru's out there could help me figure out how much difference in cost it would be to reload this same recipe if that's even possible? And also would the reloads pattern better than the factory loads if done precisely? 5 bucks a box gets pricey when you shoot 200+ shells a week. Any info is appreciated.




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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 5:18 pm 
Shotgun Expert
Shotgun Expert

Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 7:38 pm
Posts: 12231
Location: Panhandle
It all depends on your cost of components, I would guess most here today would agree on $2.70 to $3.10, again depending on who is buying what and at what quantity. And yes, performance can be duplicated with little effort.

Do you really need that much shot? Dropping the charge is an easy way to lessen costs. Some powders can be bought for around $8 a pound, WST in small amounts would cost twice that. We are stuck with some pricey primers, figure at least $.50 a box of 25 for them---even the cheapest will run $.465. Wads from $50-60 a case. Shot is the biggest hickey and varies widely, still several dollars more than what we paid a year ago.

I shoot mostly promos anymore, certainly cheaper than I can load----in 12 gauge.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 6:39 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1854
Ol' Tex is right -- with deals like those available on many loads (esp. Remington's 'Game Loads' or 'Gun Club' loads from places like Dick's Sporting World -- often as low as $2.50 / box of 25) you almost cannot relaod 'em as cheap as you can buy 'em -- certainly not when I factor in my time.

I'm actually losing money (big time!) by sitting in front of a bench with my ol' single stages for an hour or two each night.

But, $ isn't the reason I reload. I do so for several reasons:
a) only ready source of *very* light 7/8 & 1 oz loads for wife and I (my cervical problems are pretty bad and getting worse!);
b) it forces me to 'de-compress' after stressful days at work;
c) very rewarding and exceptionally relaxing hobby (at least with resources like the members of this and several other lists, that is!)

Getting away from "bringing the job home with me" has to Reason Numero Uno, however.

Here is what I got in my first order from / through a FFL dealer at my home club who orders in bulk for several members (or more) at a time:

Powder: Alliant e-3 8 lb 101.85 (very clean, super economical powder [see notes below reference Win duplicating Win factory loads with 'WST'])

E-3 4 lb 58.05 (due to some ATF or other reg., my guy can't get the 8lb cannisters, anymore)

Wads 5000 69.95 = 13.99 Per bag of 500 (Claybuster CB-1100, they clone the Winchester 1oz wads, only less expensively)

12 bags #8 Magnum shot: 189.00 =15.75 per 25lb bag

5000 primers 87.50 17.50 per (These were PMC primers -- I refuse to buy or use 'em anymore until loading data is published using them. Besides, had TOO MANY mis-fires with them!)

Plus Tax.

SUB-TOTAL: $448.30 + Tax TOTAL: $471.00

5M rounds = 200 boxes (= 20 flats)

$471.00 ~ 200 = $2.40 @ box (= $24.00 per flat)


There're a slew of places you can order direct from such as Midsouth, Natchez, Cabela's, Gamaliel (too pricey for me) and there're more in any of the shotgun-oriented magazines.

Now, my wife (and I) absolutely LOVE Winchester's "X-tra Lite" 1 oz loads and the members here were kind enough to direct me to Winchester's website where they have data pages that show you exactly how to duplicate the ballistics of their four most popular target loads ("Lite" included)

Winchester “X-tra – Lite” Simulation Load:

1oz. WIN 209 WST 19.5 Win WAA12SL 1180fps 7400psi


Winchester “Light” Simulation Load:

1 1/8oz. WIN 209 WST 18.5 Win WAA12SL 1145fps 8600psi


However, we're into 7/8 oz loads which brings us to Winchester's "International" Simulation Load:

7/8oz. WIN 209 WST 22.0 Win WAAL (grey or silver wad) 1325fps 7900psi


I was kinda shocked to see how much 'WST' the 7/8 oz wads require. But, shooting primarily skeet, we don't have any real "need for speed" and I have to do some research as to just how far I can back that powder charge off, using all the same components (Heck, 1,150 fps OR LESS is fine for us!)


This is where Alliant's relatvely new e-3 powder comes in. A lot of other powders that call for 17.5 to 21.0 grains of powder, Alliant's e3 only calls for 16.0 and we get the same results (at least we certainly feel so!).

I'm not finding e3 quite as clean as 'Clays' but, that may be something I'm doing. It is certainly a LOT cleaner than most of the other powders we have tried, thus far -- we're pretty new to this hobby. (I reached a certain point and thought, "Geez, how can I expect to burn anything and not have ANY traces of it?)

I'm glad I didn't rush out and buy a progressive, too. Just me but, the single stages have allowed me to do more "learning" as (I find) it is much easier to change loads "on the fly" whereas my experience with progressives (all former pistol shooting) was that they shined when I finally settled on "just one" (and only one) load for the rest of my career.

Oh yeah -- DO BUY A QUALITY SCALE (either a triple beam balance or high quality electronic).

There you have it: NOT factoring in my time, etc. I'm loading a box for right about what Tex said and, I always keep a couple of flats of the factory Remington "less expensive" Game or Gun Club loads on hand in case I get behind in my nightly reloading chores! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:38 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:24 pm
Posts: 438
Location: Indiana
The above post are about average on reloading cost. Last time I checked my cost for 12ga 1 oz.loads were reunning about$2.78 and the 20's were $ 2.49 . Like they mentioned Dicks sales price are hard to beat. , However I love the relaxing time reloading. Turn on my scanner ,radio on NASCAR and go to it. nothing else matters. TheMec single stage loader does a fine job unless your one of those 200 shots a week shooter.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:40 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 772
Location: Utah-Idaho border
Go to trapshooters.com and plug in component prices from your area into one of their reloading cost calculators. That'll give you a good idea of whether you'll save money or not.

As already stated, if you don't need to load something out of the ordinary go to Wal-Mart or some other discount house and buy ammo.

Reloading for fun doesn't compute to me. I shoot for fun. Spending time at the bench detracts from that. When I reload it's a means to an end, nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:16 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
If you're in the Washington state area Connie's Components is definately worth the drive. I use the following:

Rex II powder 20.5gr/round, $200/25#
Hawk II wads, $54/case(5000)
Northwest Magnum shot 1oz/round, $13 or so per 25#
Cheddite Primers $94/5000

This combo will give you a one ounce load that scoots about 1175fps or so. It is DIRTY but it works VERY WELL!!

If you buy more you save more. I figured my total cost/box was in the $1.90 range for 12ga. (I could have screwed up my math but I think I'm pretty close)

If you're dead set on duplicating the Winchester load the Winchester data go to www.winchester.com and download their reloading manual. If winchester sells it at walmart they've got the recipie for it. Win 209 primers and WST powder are both excellent but pricey.

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"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:35 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 pm
Posts: 52
Location: The Desert, utah
Thanks for the info guys, I think i'll invest in a single stage reloader/components and go at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 10:57 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Thu Aug 19, 2004 10:54 am
Posts: 1854
This list and it's members are, without any doubt, responsible for saving me hundreds of $ and months of frutration / anger / energy.

Heck, were it not for them, I would not only not be 'as far along' as I am, I probably woulda thrown in the towel back around the time Winchester's 'H-S' hulls hit my bench for the first time. (Now, they are among my favorite hulls to load -- how about dat!)

Anyway, another similar forum is at:
www.http://www.800shotgun.com/forums/index.php

Many of the members here are members there also but, ya just can't get too much advice in this game (unless it's all coming from just one person . . . OR a relative! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:04 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:50 pm
Posts: 772
Location: Utah-Idaho border
Clayslayer wrote:
If you're in the Washington state area Connie's Components is definately worth the drive. I use the following:

Rex II powder 20.5gr/round, $200/25#
Hawk II wads, $54/case(5000)
Northwest Magnum shot 1oz/round, $13 or so per 25#
Cheddite Primers $94/5000

This combo will give you a one ounce load that scoots about 1175fps or so. It is DIRTY but it works VERY WELL!!

If you buy more you save more. I figured my total cost/box was in the $1.90 range for 12ga. (I could have screwed up my math but I think I'm pretty close)

If you're dead set on duplicating the Winchester load the Winchester data go to www.winchester.com and download their reloading manual. If winchester sells it at walmart they've got the recipie for it. Win 209 primers and WST powder are both excellent but pricey.



Your reload, according to a trapshooter.com calculator and allowing .02 for hull price and 10 reloads per hull, comes out to $2.14 a box.


Last edited by dfm on Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 9:41 am 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
I guess I was off by a quarter. Still try to buy factory loads for 2.14/box. I think I'm doing pretty good.

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"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 2:20 pm 
Limited Edition
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:24 am
Posts: 355
Location: Chicagoland, IL
I was just researching the same thing. The winchester website has a downloadable reloading component .PDF that will give you the components and quantities to *exactly* duplicate these loads. All Winchester components in those work-ups. Then it's just a matter of a little mathematics given your cost of components. The cost of creating the loads this way will be more than duplicating it using cheaper components (for example Promo powder, cheaper wads, etc..), but it will definitely be cheaper than the $4.99/box street price for the AA loads.

My two cents...

HB

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:15 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
I'd reload even if I didn't save any money. I enjoy pulling on the old Mec a couple times a week and cranking out MY own ammo.

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Clayslayer
"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 6:43 pm 
Utility Grade
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Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:12 pm
Posts: 17
Location: Virginia
:D You are right, cost is not the only issue. Pulling the arm of the MEC almost gives you the same thrill as pulling the arm of a Slot machine in Las Vegas. The only thing missing are skimply clad waitresses giving me free drinks!!!! mmmmmmm.....


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:29 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
Hmmm...maybe I could hire a skimply clad girl to refill my primers and shot/powder bottles? That'd be cool. I'm sure my wife would approve....

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"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:33 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2004 6:48 pm
Posts: 52
Location: The Desert, utah
Yes i'm definitley set on loading the win AA load I mentioned. It has minimal recoil shoots great and makes cleaning after 200 shells easy cuz it doesn't foul up the bores bad at all. I'm going to download the data from the win site and use the win components and it should still be cheaper than 5.00 from wally world. E-bay has some mec 600 jr reloaders on right now i'm considering bidding on to get me started.


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 8:41 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
You're looking at a decent investment to "start up" but it'll pay for itself time and time again as you shoot. Also another way to justify it is to shoot even more like I do. Now I can honestly tell my wife that my loader has paid for itself a dozen times over! Components, particularly powder and shot, leave a smoking hole in you wallet when you run low but you're still saving money hand over fist compared to shooting factory loads.

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"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 11:22 pm 
Moderator
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Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 6:02 pm
Posts: 2497
Location: ohio
It costs me $2.53 to reload the exact same load as in the original post, with the exception that I use #8 shot, but that doesnt change the price.

Being a hull whore helps cut costs greatly.
Looking for deals, and stores that price match will help.
Using "substitution" wads help.

It also lets you "tailor" the loads to your specific needs. The same load you use, that I reload, MAY recoil less with the reload because of powder. There are many advantages to reloading, plus it is a fun hobby.

On the plus side, if you miss a clay, all you have to do is say you forgot to put shot in it!! LOL :lol: :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:02 am 
Diamond Grade
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Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 2:20 am
Posts: 1567
Location: B.C.
I have to say I am a lot like thor_son, and others that have replied, that reloading is an enjoyable hobby in itself. Here in the north, our components are so blasted expensive that it often costs more to reload, then buying the cheap promos. As one fellow put it on a past thread, it was an excuse to get out of the house, and away from the wife and the maggot...

Does hanging a picture of a scantily clad woman over the reload bench count? I'll have to look into that....I saw one deer hunting magazine that had girls with nice "racks".. :shock: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:49 am 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 4:51 pm
Posts: 4081
Location: Rapid City, South Dakota
I don't mind the "maggot" too much. He's fun to play with. It's the wife I need a break from every now and then.

I don't think you'll get full credit for the posters of half naked women around your loading press but you will at least get cool points from your buddies.

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"Point and shoot, don't think about it too much"


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 Post subject: Re: Winchester AA light target load.
PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:23 pm 
Presentation Grade
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Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 7:22 pm
Posts: 561
Location: SF Bay Area
I'm brand new to the forum but not to reloading. I also love the Winchester light target loads for my trap shooting. I mimic the load exactly in components, with only a tenth of a grain kick on the WST powder charge.
I reload for about $2.30 to $2.45 a box. Usually the only variation is with shot, which I always get at my gun club. I buy all of my components, powder, primers and wads, on the web, while I either buy my AA's at Walmart or scrounge. When I do buy components I max everything. Wads by lots of at least 5K. Powder (8lb kegs-at least 3) and primers (10K) together, up to 70 lbs on 1 $20 HazMat charge - maximize as much as you can. I looked around on the web for a long time looking for the best prices. I don't pay sales tax and that will usually off set the shipping and HazMat.
The bottom line is that I reload mostly because I enjoy it, and oh by the way I can usually save a few bucks.



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