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 Post subject: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:27 pm 
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I have been in the market lately for a pistol, possibly a little derringer, that I can keep in my truck in case I were to need it. At the pawn shop I saw an interesting little pistol/derringer that actually shoots .410 shells. I thought that would be great defense, but what kind of recoil does a .410 have? I haven't shot one in many, many years. It seems to me that the recoil would be so bad you'd never be able to hold it.

What do you think? I know this is specifically a SHOTGUN board, but since the derringer is in .410 (which is a shotgun shell), that it'd be ok posting a question about it. The gun is slightly used and they want around $100 for it.

Todd




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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 12:50 pm 
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BTW, I'm not talking person-to-person defense, I'm specifically talking about snakes, etc.

Todd


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:01 pm 
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I shot one that was a .45-70/.410....well, I shot the .410, it wasnt bad. I saw the huge reaction when one of the guys shot a .45-70 through it and how blood red his palm was and decided that wasn't for me... :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 1:19 pm 
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Can't a 45 Long Colt be shot out of that same handgun? The .410/45LC? Or am I imagining things again?

Andy

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 2:47 pm 
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I have never fired a 410 version, but I have fired a 12ga version and even my Mossberg 500 with the pistol grip single handed...I thought my SW 500 was worse, and honestly, the 12 ga pistol reminded me of my 44mag Blackhawk.
A friend of mine has two like you are talking about, and he swears by them, altho I have never been around when its convienent to ask to go shoot one off.
Recoil to me is relative...what do you consider to be excessive and what are you willing to tolerate?


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 7:14 pm 
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Well, I'm not too concerned about recoil except for the fact that this gun has a small grip, similar in design to most derringers. I was wondering how hard it would be to actually hold on to it when you shot a .410 shell from it. And yes, it is a 410/.45, but I figured .45 might be too much to shoot out of it.

Do you think a little 22mag derringer or something similar would be better?

BTW, if .410 buckshot or a slug were fired out of it, I presume that it would have too little barrel for it to stabilize. Am I correct on this? I think this little gun had a 8-10" barrel or so.

Todd


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 8:22 pm 
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I carry a P90 45 and my wife carries a Taurus 38 UltraLite.
Before I spent $100 on something that you are not sure on, and personally, if you NEED it, theer is a good chance you might need more than one or two shots, then get a small 38 or even a Bersa 380.
Our gun store used to carry a little 5 shot, 22LR pistol, if you want to call it that, and it literally could be a keychain fob.
I want something thats not gonna piss the guy off if the need to fire should arise..I want something thats gonna reach out, and say hello in a way that he will not want to move till the cops get there, or if need be, the guys with black bags.
I know more deaths happen with 22s, but still, if intimidation is the key, a derringer isnt it.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:26 pm 
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http://www.thunder5.com

This looks like an interesting 410/45Colt handgun. A bit pricy but it would be very interesting handgun. Wonder how a round of skeet would good with it. :-D

mcb

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:30 pm 
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hey man, if the derringer is black and kinda looks like pot metal STEER CLEAR! Those guns are made in Japan if i'm not mistaken. I had two and after about half a dozen shots one failed to fire and the other the barrel weld (it was a sxs 45/.410) broke. they are supreme junk if you ask me. attached is the one i'm talking about


http://images.search.yahoo.com/search/i ... o=8&tt=150


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:38 pm 
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Check out a .410\45 derringer called texas defender, it is made by waco arms, I think. It is built like a sherman tank.
As far as a .22 goes, you may want to look at north america arms .22mag 5shot. I owned one and it is very well made.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:47 pm 
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Check out a .410\45 derringer called texas defender, it is made by waco arms, I think. It is built like a sherman tank.
As far as a .22 goes, you may want to look at north america arms .22mag 5shot. I owned one and it is very well made.


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:49 pm 
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riot-gun wrote:
hey man, if the derringer is black and kinda looks like pot metal STEER CLEAR! Those guns are made in Japan if i'm not mistaken. I had two and after about half a dozen shots one failed to fire and the other the barrel weld (it was a sxs 45/.410) broke. they are supreme junk if you ask me. attached is the one i'm talking about




I have on of those in the safe a relative gave somebody five bucks for it then gave it to me cause I like strange crap. I would not shoot that thing to save my life! I also have a few of the Cobra .38 derringers, bought new junk to say the least. All of them fail to fire one of the bbls on regular occasion.
For derringers from now on Bond is the only one I would consider.

I do not own one but when the time comes for purchase another derringer I will be getting on of these.

The owner is a nice guy I spoke with him at length a few years ago when I was looking for a job. Spent an hour discussing guns and stuff. He returned my call after I sent a cold call email about engineer openings....He called to say thanks for considering his company but at the time they could not afford to add another person to the force.
One great seeming guy that really believes in his product from the conversation I had with him.
Johnboy
Here is a link to the website for bond.

http://www.bondarms.com/

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 9:54 pm 
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BoneDigger...

You said you were looking for a pistol for your truck for snakes. If you have your heart set on a .410 pistol so-be-it. But you might also consider a 38 revolver with shotshells. Plus it wont kick as hard. :)

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2005 11:19 pm 
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Thanks for all of the responses guys! I think I am going to let this one slide. I might go ahead and get a 380 or something similar ion the next few months, but it sounds like the .410 route isn't a good one. At first glance, it SEEMED like it would be a good deal, but I've reconsidered based on the posts here. Thanks again.

They had a little Bersa 380 that looked interesting, but it was around $250. May have to save a while for that. I used to have a little Ruger Single Six that shot 22 LR and Mag., but that was long ago.

Todd


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 1:29 am 
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First: Recoil of a .410 in a handgun is about like the recoil from a .44 magnum, with stock loadings. Considerably snappier than a .45 LC or .45 ACP, but not as bad as a .454 Casull.

I've shot them all. My .410 shot gun is a "snake charmer", which has such a short stock that I hold it like a handgun; it has a thumbhole stock that I use like a pistol grip, with my second hand on the forearm right in front of the trigger.

Why? Look at the amount of energy a .410 throws forward: Typically about 700 ft-lbs. About the same as typical factory ammo, much more than typical .45 LC or .45 ACP factory loadings (which hover from 250 ft-lbs for Cowboy loads to 450 ft-lbs), but much less than typical .454 Casull at over 1000 ft-lbs (and going up to insane values, like 1600 ft-lbs for some Corbon or Hornady or Buffalo Bore ammo). To make this into a fair comparison, you have to shoot the .410 shotshell in a gun that weighs about as much as a typical handgun. My snake charmer qualifies there (about 2 lbs or so). Clearly, if you are shooting the .410 shell from a shotgun that weighs 7 or 8 lbs (like a big 12-gauge tactical shotgun with all manner of accessories), much of the recoil will be soaked up by the weight of the gun.

Second: I specifically bought the snake charmer .410 shotgun as a defense weapon against snakes, and similar varmint issues (like a big rat or such). I've now decided that this is the wrong weapon for this kind of use, because (a) the .410 shotgun is already too powerful, loud and dangerous for use in close quarters, and (b) the snake charmer is a cheaply made, unreliable and not very durable gun. I now have two handguns (one each in caliber .22 LR and .45 ACP), and I would always use shotshells in a handgun for snake / rat defense instead. Just this weekend I tested .45 ACP shotshells in my H&K USP, and they cycle the action perfectly, have a reasonable pattern size for close-quarter use (about 1' diameter pattern at 7 yards, much smaller than the shotgun, and more appropriate for rat / snake defense), and you are also left with a versatile high-quality gun. Shooting shotshells in the .22 revolver also works, but supposedly they don't cycle .22 semi-autos (never tried this myself), and the amount of lead thrown out the front is so minuscule, you have to be within a few feet of the target to have any chance of "making an impact". After 7 yards, the pellets from a .22 shotshell don't even go through the thin cardboard that paper targets are made of!

If someone wanted a snake / rat weapon, based on my experience, I would recommend that they start shooting a revolver or a semi-auto pistols, in calibers .357/.38, 9mm, .45 or larger, and then buy the one they are most comfortable with, and then outfit themselves with shotshells for that gun. If the choice is a semi-auto, try to verify before buying it that it will cycle with shotshells.

If you look at the CCI website, you'll find that shotshells are available in most common handgun calibers (at least in .357/.38, 9mm, .45 ACP, .45 LC, and .44 magnum/special).


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 11:14 am 
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I've always found a nice long pole to be plenty of defense against snakes. I'm no bunny hugger, though and I respect that not everyone feels the way I do about the critters... There is also such a thing as nuissance snakes but again, not everyone here (obviously) respects my way of dealing with them.

I second the notion of a 38 or 357. SW's Airweight and it's ilk are light and small, though certainly not derringer-size. They're also more expensive, but if you don't pop for the superlight models they're reasonable. 5 shots (or 4 depending on your preference for loading / carry), you might want 2-3 snake shot and perhaps 2 HP's for 'other' game. Just don't forget they're there....

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:40 pm 
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JMHO-

Shooting a 410 in a snake charmer, mossberg etc. with pistol grip, etc is an entirely different world than these "little" derringers.

Shooting a 22LR derringer is considerably different than shooting a Jennings or other small 22.

The way the grip is shaped it has a tendency (actually more than just a tendency) to roll back. Making it hard to manage. The design was for short - very personal - close range use. Given the larger size of the shot from a 410 - there is even more "rolling" i.e. recoil. I would personally consider this as unusable.

For the same function - i.e. snake pest control, I use a 38 Special derringer with CCI shot loads or some special handloads I've made up - which have proved very effective.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 5:58 pm 
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Thanks for the advice guys. All being said, I think this would be a bad purchase. So, I am holding out for something more useable. Just a small single action Ruger or something would probably work. And they are not overly expensive.

Todd


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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:04 pm 
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cutEM05 wrote:
Can't a 45 Long Colt be shot out of that same handgun? The .410/45LC? Or am I imagining things again?

Andy


no your right, the only thing is, you will blow your barrel up with a 45 colt.

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 Post subject: Re: .410 gauge pistol? Recoil?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2005 9:16 pm 
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Some guns are pressure-proof for 45LC - however they're marked as such.



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