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 Post subject: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 12:25 am 
Can someone tell me what the "Flues" model means WRT an old Ithaca shotgun? And why would I be told not to shoot it?

The piece in question belonged to my Dad and has been passed down to me. I'm just trying to find out something about it.

UNC64




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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 5:51 am 
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UNC64,
Who told you not to shoot it? If it were a competent gunsmith,I'd say DON'T!. If it was just someone expressing an unqualified opinion,I'd say have a good smith inspect it first.There are a lot of people safely shooting Ithica "Flues" out there.Chances are you may want to shoot lower pressure loads, more along the lines of what the gun was originally designed for.If so,take a look at the Galazan's site.You'll find rather inexpensive,2 1/2",12ga.,loads putting out approximately 8,000 psi.,rather than the 12,000 psi.more common in most modern shells.Less wear and tear on you and the gun.The cartridges are made by Kent/Gamebore and sell for about $6.50 a box.If you don't mind the clean-up,you can drop another 2,000 psi.,by going with their black powder shells.All of these can be found elsewhere,but I've found Galazan's to have the better price.
Good Luck,
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:11 am 
UNC64- Jim's given you great advice and I hope he won't mind me piggy backing on his responce but you hit hit one of my favorite subjects. The old Flues were designed to be a lightweight, fast handleing American version of the classic game gun and filled this role admirably until the end of WWI. At that point, American manufacturers raised the pressure limits on ammunition from apprx. 8,500psi to 13,500psi. The little Flues just couldn't take it; cracked frames began to appear. If loaded to pressures below 8,500 an uncracked Flues is a delight to carry in the field. My favorite field gun is a 16ga, Field grade Flues. It just don' get no better!

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:45 am 
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Interesting stuff. I inherited a 1914 Ithaca Flues model about a year-and-a-half ago that was once my great-grandfather's. When I called Ithaca to research the serial number to find out the model of the gun, I was told by the man at their museum to not shoot it. (He didn't go into detail as to why I shouldn't shoot it, but I now assume that the pressures of modern loads was the consideration). Currently the gun doesn't work (firing pins don't strike hard enough to set off the primer), but if I could find some safe loads to shoot in this gun, I would consider getting it fixed and using it on occasion. Do you think these low-pressure loads would fit the bill?

Thanks.


Last edited by CrusherT on Tue Oct 02, 2012 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 4:49 am 
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Crusher,
YES. In fact, check out ARMUSA. You'll find some loads that drop pressures even further by lightening the shot charge a little more. How about something in the 5-6,000 psi. range?
Jim


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Sep 29, 2003 5:17 pm 
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Thanks for asking this question. I have a 16 ga Flues also, it's in good shape with no cracks. I didn't know the pressures that the gun was designed for. Since I haven't shot it yet, this info should prevent future problems.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2003 8:26 am 
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Sorry I missed the first part of your question. The name Flues comes from the designer, Emil Flues, who worked for Ithaca from approx. 1906-1915. Little known secret- there were more Flues produced than any single model of double barrel made in the US.

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 6:40 pm 
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Lonzo - You know your stuff!
Glad to hear from another who's favorite field gun is a Flues... Absolutely, It don't get no better! I've carried mine if the field for the past 35+ years. I've got a 12ga, 28" barrels, probably a little heavier than a 16ga, but still has that balance and handling supreme... I wish ( or wish i never had ) heard of the cracking frames, years ago when i got the gun... Oh Well, mine has given me unbelievable service, and still going.
Emil Flues can be proud of the one I have, and you might want to check this one out.
http://gunshop.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=009309
I own the Grade 1 (the Big en) that started that post. It really illustrates the difference that's found in Flues models. Mine might be what some call a heavy, clunky, field Flues (I prefer, beffy, sound and solid), but let me tell ya "It has taken the HEAT", very well!

When in college, Many Times on Saturday morn a couple buddies and I would get 2 boxes of clays (gross boxes(144) clays then) and a case a shells, go to the farn and all three of us would take turns shootin only my Ithaca with a thrower we had on an old truck wheel - slowin down only when i thought the gun was getting too hot!. It would take us a hour or two and we'd go to town for lunch. Then after lunch we'd just get another two boxes a clays, more shells and do it again. We'd even mix loads - put a Rem Express Gas Mag Max Load in one side and a Target load in the other just to determine the required lead for the Field Vs Targe load. And did stupid stuff like put two field loads in and just TOTALLY DISINTERGRATE a few with BOTH BARRELS! (including Both MAX loads from the hip for just incase practice) Believe me - Mine''s been to the MAX with everything that 2 3/4 offers. Pretty stupid huh? But Emil definitely can be proud of this one! Its a good en. Still going, lookin good, sound and tight as the day i got it.

I do not suggest that anyone attempt such stupidity with these guns - especialy after viewing the pics in the post above - Some Flues guns have very thin sides... And Man, am I lucky that dumb luck gave me a good one!

Field loads and Mags have taken their toll on the stock however. I popped a chipoff the top of the buttstock about 10 yeas ago, then last year i popped one off the other side. I have finally found a smith/stock man who says he can fix (steel pin & replace/blend in new wood) it so it will be stronger than original. We''ll see, the work is in progress now. As the gun is a 1911, if the work is good i'm sortta thinkin i might run it till it was 100 years old, then just like a good car gets new rubber and balacnced, i'd restock and get it all balanced up as original for its second century of service!!! The current stock does have its share of dings, dents and scratches. But the gun does definitely deserve new rubber( i mean wood) all around! (and balance as original - they, all flues, had the stock hollowed out, rather precisly, at the factory to give it is balance)

You know the problem from here. It really ain't worth all that much. Stock work is rather if not VERY expensive! There are some semi finshed/pre inletted stocks around, and i did order one, not bad, and will work, but as these pics show, mine is a big framed fluse and one place will require fill and bead.
Close, but no cigar as an oiginal replacement, but a good backup and the pre inletted set was only 50 bucks for std plain walnut, a good chunk a wood too, just the shop gun model for inleting didnt have as wide a frame as mine and the wood slipping into the back of the reciever ins't wide enough and the fill will be seen from a top view... It was a good try!

I could just keep tryin these pre inletted/semi-finishned sources until i find the one that's fits mine, but thats trial and error.

So, And i'm sorry for the long windedness...

Ya know anybody with pre-inletted flues stocks (affordable/reasonable) - and this time I'll send the gun and let them pick the one that fits up in mine completely, perhaps even let them fit, bolt up and balance it. It doesnt need to be finished as the originals are linseed oil finished and i can do that, especially it they pick a good fit and leave the wood proud.

I'm lookin for as original as possible, which really wasn't all that good a wood, finish or fancy at all, just a good original fit and balance for a field gun! Sorta the original rudeness of a Field grade gun that it is!

And your right, It don't get no better! They just dont make guns with balance and handling like a fluse anymore....


Last edited by BuckshotBob on Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:31 am, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2003 9:22 pm 
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Bob- Thanks for the compliment. I saw that post on gunshop but stayed far from the fray. When an Ithaca discussion already includes Russ Ruppel, Walt Snyder, Greg Tagg and Dave Noreen (Researcher) there's no need for me to do anything but shut up and learn!!

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 2:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:15 pm
Posts: 61
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For sure, those guys are a world of info for Doubles, and Ithaca's. But in a year and a half that i've been readin, postin and lookin for good flusie replacement stocks no one ever mentioned Emil Flues or the Flues was the MOST produced Double ever in America... Good stuff there Lonzo. Those guys are deep into it and sometimes speak in a shotgun vernacular that takes me a while to dig into - but fun and informing as i'm a fluse owner. Think I will buy Walt's book.

As for Flues's and ammo for em, "I know Nothingggg", except learn and know your gun.

I'm interested in stocks for em!!! Lets get back to Wood for em.
(Or just let me know if i'm buttin and should start another thread...)

I ordered a Semi-Finished stock from Ed Perkins, Midwest Gun & Stock Co or Gunstocks Inc. Think they're all connected and have a website http://www.gunstocksinc.com
Go to the Wood Grades page and you'll see prices are very reasonable, currently $60 for a 2 piec shotgun semi-finished, pre-inletted plain walnut stock set. I'll bet their machined Flues pre-inletting will fit 95%+ of Flues guns perfectly and its a NICE chunk a Wallnut, both of em, butt and fore wood. But on this Big, Wide, Thick one i have, on the top, where the wood fits up into the reciever on each side of the top tang its neither long enough to fit fully into the reciever, nor wide enough to come out to the inside of the sidewall as they extend back. Its ts hard to describe (i'll take a pic later if anybody wants), Theres plenty of wood everywhere on the outside! I discussed it with him and he offered to take it back, but I decided to keep it - it aint bad at all - and now seeing others are smaller framed than mine i bet his would fit 95% of others perfectly. They obviously have a nice jig set up for flues inlet machining, nice and sharp, holes match, saftey slide fit right, not bad... Perhaps i'm just a bit too picky and dont want any fill and bead because the original did't have any.... In fact i just might send them my gun and ask en to pick/make one with just a bit longer and wider fit up into the gun. I don't know if they have em allready to go in batches, or do em individually, Anyway my error for not sending them the gun for exact inlet fit.... (but its is a nice hulk a wallnut for me to learn how to fill and bed fit).

Do you know any other places that have pre-inletted semi-finished Flues stocks... Reasonably?

(And forget about "The Great American Gunstock Company" - http://www.gunstocks.com - you can try em - not me, they wouldn't even ship one to me for the price they advertize on thier site! not to mention me send em my gun...
Winig - nice guy, honest, too expensive for a field gun
Trunbull - $2600!!! - pretty nervy way of sayin he doesn't like wood work - or - don't waste my time on a field flues)

As these Flues were "The Most" produced American shotgun surely there are more sources for stocks around?


Last edited by BuckshotBob on Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:46 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 7:59 am 
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:51 am
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Bob- Yep, Ithaca made approx. 223,000 Flues between 1908-1925. LC Smith made more guns but that total includes hammer guns. There's a fine article in Double Gun Journal, Volumn 13, issue 3, Autumn 2002 that spells it all out.

Do buy Walt Snyder's " The Ithaca Gun Co.- From the Beginning". It's a priceless source of imformation to the Ithaca afficianado.

Stocks- Your flues is unusual in it's size and while I'm not sure what "point and bead" means, your going to have to send the gun for fitting or make a sample for them to duplicate. That's not too difficult to do. E-mail me and I'll explain the process.

Time to go. Good luck, whatever you decide.

'Lonzo

P.S.: Buy your ammunition from Poly Wad In Macon. Low pressure and the proper length for your chambers, if origional.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:14 am 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2003 2:15 pm
Posts: 61
Location: Florida/Indiana/NewYork
Oops, typo, I meant "Fill and Bed" as in epoxy fill and/or Fiberglass bead or bedding, to insure even recoil distribution to the wood fit.

I'll oil/butter up the metal reciever, put/lay epoxy on the wood to fill, then squeeze all together and bolt up till epoxy hardens and sets but not yet totally bonded, then pop the the stock out and use an emory board to shape/smooth any excess squezzed out. Epoxy wont stick to the oiled metal and you get a perfect molded fit! Works very well but i've never done it on a gun... And on a fine wood to metal fit your probably gonna be able to see it when looking down on the top/back back of the reciever.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:29 pm
Posts: 9
Just a little history on Emil Flues. Prior to his fame with Ithaca, and his custom built shotguns, Flues was a premier Schuetzen rifle builder in the Bay City, Michigan area. As a secretary in the local Schuetzen club, and gun shop owner, Flues made some elaborate and beautiful schuetzen rifles based on actions from Marlin Ballards, and other similar singleshot rifles.
He also did some custom guns for friends and club members. I own a model 1881 Marlin lever action, chambered for the .40-60 Marlin cartridge, whcih was custom built by Emil Flues. It is stocked in the most beautiful black walnut burl stock, with 28 lines per inch checkering, nickel plated Swiss schuetzen buttplate, and pistol grip. All screws have been engraved, as is a beautiful matching grip cap. The rollstamp on the barrel reads: "E. Flues Bay City" This is the only known lever action repeater done by Flues, but I have seen a couple Ballard singleshot schuetzen rifles.
Flues had his shop in Bay City from about 1893 to 1905, when he closed to join Ithaca.
Hope this info helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2003 7:58 pm 
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Everybody has said all that I can say about a Flues.

They are renowned as being one of the best made inexpensive shotguns ever. People love them and they are rather hot items in the used market. You can easily pay $1000 for a good one, but I've seen them as cheap as $650.

I passed one up once for $250 and I'm still losing sleep over it. It was a contract gun, and marked "Richmond" as I recall. So it wasn't THAT good a deal.

Anyway, your dad had good taste in guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:06 pm 
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Where's a good place to buy a copy of Walt Snyder's book? Sounds like a good source of information.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:31 pm 
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Location: Dixie
For an autographed copy of "The Ithaca Gun Co: From The Begining" send $96.00 to: Walter Syder
225 South Valley Road
Southern Pines, North Carolina
28387

Pricey, but worth every penny if you're interested in Ithacas.

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:48 am 
I am no expert but I believe a man named Flues designed some prototype guns with inovative choke systems. Ithaca adopted these systems in their E series and others. I shoot one and use light modern loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 6:52 am 
I am no expert but I believe a man named Flues designed some prototype guns with inovative choke systems. Ithaca adopted these systems in their E series and others. I shoot one and use light modern loads.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2004 3:57 pm 
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gmann2 wrote:
I am no expert but I believe a man named Flues designed some prototype guns with inovative choke systems. Ithaca adopted these systems in their E series and others. I shoot one and use light modern loads.


Ithica Flues guns are well known and are a very nice relatively inexpensive vintage and classic SxS. I think you can see them for a thousand bucks though, but I've seen nice ones for $600.

That still ain't cheap, however.


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 Post subject: Re: Ithaca Flues Model Shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 10:49 am 
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Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:01 pm
Posts: 22
Marlinguy's information is on target. Don't forget...every good Newton rifle had to go by the final assemby and inspection of Emil Flues. Also...nearly every known sidelock Flues produced had been stolen from Emil's west coast family...including the one owned by Fred Kubissa in the 1970's. It sure is strange how they haven't surfaced in any publications or on the internet....There was good reason why so many well-heeled patrons had Emil hand make guns for them...including James Packard (also commissioned most valuable Patek moonphase), actor Tom Mix, engraver Rudolph Kornbrath, Charles Newton (father of high velocity), and Haille Selassie (Ras Tafari). No other double inventor impacted the American double gun market as much as he did...and he never sought credit for the gun that was based on his patent for several reasons.

There is still much misinformation out there about when an Ithaca Flues model is safe to shoot.....if you want to know, read Gough Thomas's gun book about the pressure differences between paper and plastic as related to 2 3/4 and 2 9/16 chambers lengths....

If I may ...I would like to tweak Marlinguy's answer just a little by saying that Flues hammer stamped or engraved his touchmark...he never had the luxury of owning a roll engraving/stamping machine as did Ithaca Gun Co (shown below)

Image




Last edited by robertchambers on Wed Feb 24, 2010 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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