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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:45 pm 
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I’ve heard the phrase uttered, mostly in jest from a lot of real “warriors” and real veteran police officers over the years. Clearly there are too many variables and situations to cover here where there may be times when that phrase would be applicable, and when it’s not realistic.

I think the point of the phrase , on a general level, is really trying to emphasize that a long arm in most cases is a superior personal defensive tool. If given the opportunity, who would not want to transition to a long arm if they could?

Nobody would argue that you use whatever tool you had at the time, but if the opportunity to grab a superior weapon presents itself, then you’d be a fool not to take it.


OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
I guess you know a lot of "warriors" (I agree,, just WTF is the Universal meaning of that one?) who run around with a pistol without their long gun.

Before I retired from Govt. Service, I, and the folks who worked with me, had their rifles, pistols were symbols for officers (who, when push came to shove, hauled a rifle in their fist).

No-one gave the least consideration to "fighting to their bigger gun", because they had their 'bigger gun'.

Yea,,, 15 yrs ago the Air Force almost lost a couple SF's because when Muhammad drove up near the gate and got out of his car with his AK, the 2 SF's had 9mm's, HAD THEM IN SUICIDE FLAP HOLSTERS, their M16's were nearby, in a LOCKED Hummer (safely secured from theft/molestation).
Did they "fight to the rifles"?
No, they dealt with it my a LOT of 9mmP ammo and (likely) brown skivvies (and Lady Luck was with them I am certain).

Now,, again,, as I stated,, it is a VERY COMMON statement used among CIVILIANS who carry guns daily like I do, to justify the rifle they haul around in their trunk or behind/under the truck seat.
"My pistol is for fighting to get to my rifle".
It's, to not put too fine a point on it................ BullScat.
In the regular civilian world, (99.999999999999% of the world), IF you ever need a gun, you won't need it long, 2-6 seconds pretty much max, you will fire MAYBE, one cylinder or magazine of ammo, and the only gun you will GET to use is the one you have immediately available.
There IS NO "fighting to get to the car/truck/gun", except in fantasies in the civilian world.




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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:11 pm 
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Location: Newton Kansas
crustyrusty wrote:
I’ve heard the phrase uttered, mostly in jest from a lot of real “warriors” and real veteran police officers over the years. Clearly there are too many variables and situations to cover here where there may be times when that phrase would be applicable, and when it’s not realistic.

I think the point of the phrase , on a general level, is really trying to emphasize that a long arm in most cases is a superior personal defensive tool. If given the opportunity, who would not want to transition to a long arm if they could?

Nobody would argue that you use whatever tool you had at the time, but if the opportunity to grab a superior weapon presents itself, then you’d be a fool not to take it.

Oh absolutely..........................

The problem is that "opportunity" almost never "presents itself" when theory crosses paths with reality.

By the time "opportunity presents itself", the need for the "bigger/better gun" is past, the situation has already resolved itself, to some end.

From the statements people make justifying their multiple gun carriage (or stowage at home), they seem to think that they will be busting up The LA Bank Robbery, or that their home will be invaded by a team of Navy SEALs, multiple, determined (to the last man) Home Invaders who will stop at nothing to steal your TV.

"Using your handgun to fight to your rifle to then continue the fight",, is bull-poop.

I don't care what people carry, I don't demand they "justify" that "trunk-gun" decision to me,, they proudly and loudly advertise it with the logic I just gave, the deeply FLAWED logic I just gave.

I know some ranchers with actual logic,,, that Truck Rifle is an "Opportunistic Coyote Whacker", I've been there, done that,, makes perfect sense.

They don't claim the Truck Rifle is what they use their handgun to fight their way out of a robbery at the local Stop-N-Rob to get to so that they can now fight their way back into the robbery better armed.......... No.
At the kindest,,,,, that's just goofy.
Less kindly,, it's a lot worse.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 9:27 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:24 pm
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Location: Upstate SC
I always have a .40, .45 or 9mm on me or beside me.

There’s always a couple of HD type rifles and shotguns in my safe and often in my trunk.

And given enough warning, I’d grab one of those.

But since 98% of the time I’m moving around outside my house or car, going about my business; my mind is focused on responding with the handgun I’m carrying. Which is also why I train with that kind of weapon the most.

In most personal defense situations, I’m fairly confident in the FNP-40 or S&W 4014 I’m usually carrying along with a second magazine. The latter of which I don’t expect to use.

If I saw or heard a commotion in the barn for example, I’d probably grab the 12 gauge pump. I’d still have a pistol or .357 on my hip.

As far as the topic of this thread, it’s a no-brainer than a single LEO in most instances is better off with his pistol than a long gun. Backups show up? Sure. One or more should have a shotgun or AR depending on the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:00 pm 
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VTHokiesDuckHunter wrote:

But since 98% of the time I’m moving around outside my house or car, going about my business; my mind is focused on responding with the handgun I’m carrying. Which is also why I train with that kind of weapon the most.


You must be talking about the time when you are awake.
Most of us spend roughly a third of our lives asleep and for civilian home defense a shotgun is probably a better choice to keep by the bed. That is because unlike the police, we are not going to be chasing or wrestling with the home invader. We are going to be shooting him.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 9:51 am 
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Nothing wrong with THAT theory Ezra.............. you can generally expect "warning" caused by someone bashing on your door, smashing a window, a dog losing it's mind, "opportunity presenting itself" to grab something bigger, FIRST, sure.

Last spring 3 dindonuffins decided to B&E a house on the northern outskirts of Tulsa Oklahoma.
They made enough noise though to arouse persons living there though, who took umbrage.
He who took umbrage, grabbed an AR.
There were "words spoken" supposedly, perhaps "arguing", I suspect the resident questioning the presence of strangers, who lacked invitations, to a party that was not being held, in his home.

2 dindonuffins never left the kitchen.
Dindonuffin #3 E&E'd the house at high speed, but tired out (shoulda trained more cardio) as he got round to the driveway (they went in the back), and decided to lay down there to wait for the po-po to come get him.
None of the 3 were arrested.
All 3 were provided a Coroner,, free of cost to them.

The E&E driver (the "back-up force") didn't come in to rescue them when gunplay broke out ("No One Left Behind"), she grasped Opportunity, and drove away, arrested 2 days or so later for 3-counts of murder.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:01 pm 
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Shotguns are far superior to handguns for defending from a fixed position, the proper tactic for home defense. Take cover at a prearranged choke point such as a narrow hall or stairway and let the bad guy come to you. The police often have to do the opposite. They have to chase down the bad guys and put their hands on them, cuff them and wrestle them into the back of the patrol car. A policeman can only use his pistol as a last resort in response to a threat of deadly force. Therefore he needs a small weapon that is light enough to carry all day that can be operated with one hand. A home owner is under no such restriction but he is under the threat of deadly force (in my state) the instant someone forcibly invades his home. He has no reason to touch, chase or restrain a home invader. The only time he needs a free hand is after the fact to call the police.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:32 pm 
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evbutler wrote:
I speak from experience as a retired LEO. In my many years on the job, the only time our troops used a shotgun was to qualify. IMO, it is useless as a LE tool. I have never known of an incident where the shotgun was actually used in a takedown. Yes, our liability insurance carrier required that shotguns be a part of the firearms we carried.

Sometime ago, a member posted about buying police shotguns. They are an excellent buy due to the fact that the only time that they were fired was during annual qualifications. I carried three or four different models as we changed from one brand to another. The only time the gun left the trunk was to be turned in to be sold.


I'm also a retired LEO/Firearms Instructor and that is a pretty broad statement. We were required by state mandate to qualify with shotguns until a few years ago. I was a Special Investigations Detective for about 14 years and took my shotgun on most of our search warrants, and there were many. I also used it many times on fugitive felony arrests and vehicle takedowns. I know a number of other officers and detectives who did the same thing. While many officers would leave it in the car, a good number wouldn't. I also know of a number of Tactical Teams who still employ it for a number of things to include being carried by the point man. So I would have to strongly disagree with your saying the shotgun has no use in law enforcement.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:54 pm 
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I should have clarified my above statement. Many times the troops had a shotgun in their hands but I never knew one of them to actually fire it when doing searches or making felony arrests. The shotgun was more of a security blanket that could give the officer firepower if needed. In my 50 years of service, I never had one of my troops fire one in the performance of their duties. They prefered the AR. Buckshot and slugs are dangerous to everyone in the area. A .223 disintegrates if it hits anything. Buckshot and slugs richocet and are more dangerous than the AR.

Each to his own preferred procedures. Only when the liability carriers got involved did qualifications become necessary. IIRC, my first qualification was in the late 1970s or early 80s. The liability carrier required it, not the state. It was later on that the departments started to require shotgun and rifle qualifications in order to get liability insurance. Then State Training and Standards got involved and made it mandatory.

I carried a Model 60 .38 and had to get waivers from our liability insurance carrier. In the early 1990s, semi-auto pistols were issued and those of us older guys got waivers so that we could continue to carry revolvers. I retired a little over a year ago and used the Model 60 to qualify with every time.

I will be 80 years old shortly and have most of my adult life been in LE. I may be set in my ways and stand to be corrected. But it will be a little late as I am no longer in charge. Someone else has that responsibility now.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:26 pm 
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evbutler wrote:
I retired a little over a year ago...

and

I will be 80 years old shortly...


Congratulations! You worked a full shift. I know a bunch of cops my age (mid fifties) who are retiring on the taxpayers dime and may live off retirement for as long as they worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:53 pm 
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You are so right, Ezra.

When I started in LE, there were no requirements. I had to drive my own family car and got paid mileage. Every shift, we went by the desk and picked up a few rolls of change so that we could call back to the dispatcher via pay phone to get our next call. I recall vividly the day when the state gave us some surplus two-way radio, the old tube types. I got fired so much that I went from one agency to another and watched LE grow into a great vocation.

I have posted on here about the problems that I had when I spoke out or arrested the wrong person with the right connections. The evolution of LE into what it is today is interesting. I worked for enough LE agencies to be qualified to share that evolution from a group of men who was hired for their brawn and with little equipment to what it is today. Amazing, every time I got fired another agency would be ready to take me on. Then 30 years ago, I found a great agency and never moved again.

The difference between then and when I retired a year ago is the difference between daylight and darkness. Nowadays, LEOs have late model vehicles with laptops and enough electrical devices that special alternators are required to keep them supplied with current. Portable radios small enough to be practical are now common. Plus, all the equipment necessary for doing the job. Not back in the early days.

Sometimes I criticize the insurance carriers but I have to give them credit for requiring LE agencies to have the proper training and equipment. Had they waited for local governments to spend money, we would still be using pay phones and carrying Model 10s. In 1972, the state created Training and Standards and required new hires to have a high school diploma and undergo a 4-week course in Basic Law Enforcement training. LEOs on the payroll were grandfathered in. I was one of many who was grandfathered in. Now, a new hire has a 6-months academy training ahead of him or her.

I guess I have been Off Topic enough. Later, gents.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:25 pm 
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Evbutler

The model 60 is one of my favorite handguns! Except I prefer the .357 Mag versions with .38 special reserved for the range.

The S&W 686 .357 Magnum with a 4” barrel in my opinion is the ultimate handgun. Even though I mainly carry S&W 3rd Gen metal pistols in 9mm; .40 S&W and .45 Colt.

If I could only carry one gun forever; it would be a 686 4”


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:42 pm 
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A few years back I went to the local range to do a little recreational shooting with my Ruger Security Six and 100 reloads and encountered two very young and enthusiastic cops fresh out of the academy who were shooting up some "free"* 9MM ammo out of their issue Glocks. As often happens at the range we swapped. I allowed them to try mine and they allowed me to try their Glock, (ho-hum). Believe it or not these two young officers had never fired a revolver before! They were very impressed by the power of the .357 and I indulged them by letting them shoot up my remaining ammo. They handed me a Glock and a box of 9MM as a consolation prize. These guys acted like kids at Christmas and concluded by saying that they both wanted to buy their own .357 Magnum.
I had more fun watching them than I would have had shooting it up myself and I shot up the 9MM just to be cordial.

* Nothing is free. My tax dollars paid for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 10:41 pm 
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VTHokiesDuckHunter, it just so happens that I have a 686 that I have had for several years. Never never been fired. I bought it shortly after S&W introduced them. I think that I would enjoy shooting it and it is on my bucket list.

Ezra, my agency bought 100 Security Six revolvers for the troops back in the late 1980s. When they were replaced with Beretta 9mms, I bought one of them. Before I retired, I bought 300 Glock .40s for the road deputies. The shift supervisors kept the 9mms. Of course, I retained my model 60. Officers of captain and above had their choice. Most of them kept the 9mms.

When I get a hankering to pop a few caps, I use the Security Six and semt-wadders. It is accurate and smooth as a baby's bottom. I keep it close by my Nova pump in case one of the Din-do-nothings pay me a visit.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:36 pm 
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evbutler wrote:
I should have clarified my above statement. Many times the troops had a shotgun in their hands but I never knew one of them to actually fire it when doing searches or making felony arrests. The shotgun was more of a security blanket that could give the officer firepower if needed. In my 50 years of service, I never had one of my troops fire one in the performance of their duties. They prefered the AR. Buckshot and slugs are dangerous to everyone in the area. A .223 disintegrates if it hits anything. Buckshot and slugs richocet and are more dangerous than the AR..


I like to think all of our firearms are nothing more then a security blanket. I don't know any cops that really want to have to shoot someone although I suspect there probably are a few.

I would say most cops don't like the shotgun due to the recoil. If you don't know how to properly manage it, it can be rough. Most cops I know have no understanding of ballistics. They shoot what they are given.

Any ammunition is dangerous. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only 5.56 rounds that disintegrates are frangible rounds. The M193 and M855 will fragment it they hit above a certain velocity but don't disintegrate. Most LEO ammo now is either bonded or full copper for barrier penetration among other things. Almost any round can ricochet not just buckshot or slugs. Again, I think that most officers don't like the shotgun due to the recoil. JMHO.

And I'm one of the ones that retired young. I'll probably go back into it but I wanted to do a few years overseas contracting.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:18 am 
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Birdshot riccochets, I shoot a lot of 3-gun, if you are well off to the side of a steel popper shotgun stage (and still behind the shooting line), you get spattered, and it isn't whole pellets,, it's bits and pieces, 30* or so back off the steel.
Buck and slugs are not used on the steel, because of this, and no lead larger than #6. Slugs are used on cardboard,, never had call for buck. Accuracy targets are scored just like handgun/rifle, buck would be non-helpful.

If lead bullets hit steel fairly perpendicular, the lead shatters, even rifle bullets, even bonded and jacketed bullets, BUT, the jackets themselves often do not shatter, I shoot a lot of IDPA, if indoors, we shoot down near the backstop. In order to set up width in a stage, the targets are set up, at least beginning from, right in front of the backstop,, field depth is back away.
Shooting a Yo! Homey or El-Presidente stage you may be within 5 or 6 yards of the backstops.
I've been hit by a fair number of bullet jackets, thus why I never wear shorts (no matter how hot the range is (seen a few people get cut shins)) and I'm wearing a cover garment (coat or jacket) anyhow.
98% of these jackets come from a high-velocity ammo, 9mmP or .38 Super, almost never from the .40's and .45's.
For this reason most steel is a reactive (falling) target and most of it is angled slightly toward you (so most shards blow downward).
20 yrs ago some guys running a range SE of me were trying to develop some falling target stands, hit the reaction plate, it would jar a latch apart, target falls, miss the plate, target still live until you hit it correctly.

First design sat the cardboard silhouette too close to the plate, shattered cast bullet lead shards would slice back through the target in a rough circle 4-6" in diameter centered on the entry hole.

M855 has a piece of steel inside it, that dam thing will go who knows where, same with copper-jacketed steel-core milsurplus ammo from all over the world (mostly com-bloc stuff), you really shouldn't shoot it at steel, fools doing that have been injured at ranges from steel 100 yards away on occasion, straight back at them.
A funny you-tube video has a Mosin Nagant shooting 7.62 Russian Rimmed milsurp at steel, the ricochet takes his hat off his head. A freak event to be sure,, but while freak events are rare, they do happen.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:46 pm 
Shooting Instructor
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Ezra Smack wrote:
This is a somewhat dated but still relevant police training video about when not to use a shotgun. If you keep one in your vehicle or stashed behind the counter at work you really need to see this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTzNlGLHEo

As civilians we are not likely to be chasing criminals on foot but as the instructor says: "Once you have got a shotgun, you've got it" meaning that in a hostile environment you can't afford to put it down therefore you have one hand tied up and can't climb or help restrain someone who's actions not warrant the use of deadly force. These same principles would apply if you were a shop keeper or bartender and grabbed up a shotgun to deal with a problem such as a drunken scuffle in a crowded environment.



The unfortunate reality of wide open patterns, as shown in the video, remains for those using todays "dated" buckshot ammo simply because it is cheap! Buckshot technology has moved on, yet most shotgunners don't have any idea and don't pattern test anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:31 pm 
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RMc wrote:
The unfortunate reality of wide open patterns, as shown in the video, remains for those using todays "dated" buckshot ammo simply because it is cheap! Buckshot technology has moved on, yet most shotgunners don't have any idea and don't pattern test anyway.


These modern super tight patterns come at the expense of slightly smaller pellets (even though they still get away with calling them 00) and reduced pellet count. At home defence distance I would rather have the heavier payload for increased damage to the target. The longest straight shot that I can take inside my home is only 11 yards. At that range traditional loads only spread to about the diamiter of a salad plate. That is plenty tight enough. If I must deal with a problem outside I will grab an AR rather than a shotgun. So should law enforcement.

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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:53 pm 
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Ezra Smack wrote:
RMc wrote:
The unfortunate reality of wide open patterns, as shown in the video, remains for those using todays "dated" buckshot ammo simply because it is cheap! Buckshot technology has moved on, yet most shotgunners don't have any idea and don't pattern test anyway.


These modern super tight patterns come at the expense of slightly smaller pellets (even though they still get away with calling them 00) and reduced pellet count. At home defence distance I would rather have the heavier payload for increased damage to the target. The longest straight shot that I can take inside my home is only 11 yards. At that range traditional loads only spread to about the diamiter of a salad plate. That is plenty tight enough. If I must deal with a problem outside I will grab an AR rather than a shotgun. So should law enforcement.


Indeed, at "hallway distances" none of the pattern enhancement developments in buckshot ammunition, at least since the introduction of the mid-19th century pin-fire breech loader, make any meaningful difference.

Nonetheless, there exists the possibility unforseen contingencies that may demand immediate response with the equipment in hand. Hence my preference for concentrated buckshot patterns.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 3:01 am 
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When I was younger I was shooting at a old dump that had a washing machine sitting about 30 yards away. Using a Ruger security six 357 with 125 grain hollow point ammo. There was a good clear spot on the side I used as a aiming point and as I shot a split second later the bullet clipped the top of my right shoulder...Just a clean cut 3/4 " long that bled about a table spoon. But 2" from my right eye as I was shooting right handed and am left eye dominant. That day tought me a valuable lesson..Use eye protection every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Limitations of the shotgun
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2018 4:06 pm 
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bossharp wrote:
...That day tought me a valuable lesson..Use eye protection every time.


I met an old WWII veteran many years ago who wore a patch over one eye like a pirate. I assumed it was from a service related injury and it sorta was, but not from combat. He told me that he was a pistol instructor and was coaching a recruit at the range when a piece of .45 brass centered him perfectly in the eye like a cookie cutter. After a couple of failed surgeries and a year of extreme pain and discomfort he finally had to have the eye ball removed. He was discharged from the Army and never saw combat, or anything else from that eye ever again.

Wear your safety glasses.



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