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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:01 am 
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Well, the question that started this was, is there different shot sizes for different targets. Answer is, yes. How much so, depends on your skill, places you shoot and your goals.

Where one takes that, as one can read has a wide variety of opinions. We've heard from top shelf shooters, to chicken hunters and everyone in between. About as clear as mud. So to the OP, pick a theory and start. I'm sure you'll adjust and change as you go along.

One thing, I feel is correct. Be consistent. In ones approach and equipment. One can't manage what they don't measure....and its hard to manage a dip stick if its always changing.




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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:23 am 
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bdog58 wrote:
Well, the question that started this was, is there different shot sizes for different targets. Answer is, yes. How much so, depends on your skill, places you shoot and your goals.

Where one takes that, as one can read has a wide variety of opinions. We've heard from top shelf shooters, to chicken hunters and everyone in between. About as clear as mud. So to the OP, pick a theory and start. I'm sure you'll adjust and change as you go along.

One thing, I feel is correct. Be consistent. In ones approach and equipment. One can't manage what they don't measure....and its hard to manage a dip stick if its always changing.


That is spot on. Confidence is what's important. I hate changing shells during a round. I rarely change chokes anymore, but I would rather put in a skeet choke for close targets than shoot a spreader load or change shot size. That is where my confidence level is highest. I don't think there is a right answer, only a right answer for you. That right answer may change over time, but don't worry about it now.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:32 am 
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Someone please explain to me how a 7-½ won't break a target that a 9 will break; or when a 9 will break a target and a 7-½ won't.

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The simple answer is, "K80, 32" flat-rib bbls, S&S custom stock, 55/45, Bornaghi 1oz 1250 7-½'s, M/M, Castelani, Lonesome Charlie, K-lube, qMaxx blue, Bore-snake, green Brake-cleen, and a very cold and dry Stoli martini."


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:51 am 
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JacksBack,

Don't start making sense now and ruin all the foolishness!! :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 12:06 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Someone please explain to me how a 7-½ won't break a target that a 9 will break; or when a 9 will break a target and a 7-½ won't.

9s have more magic BBs.

Better chance of getting 3 magic BBs in a target when there is more magic BBs.

When your world champion coach says he uses 90% #8s and his world champion contender buddies say they use "mostly #8", you can either be stubborn and stick with your 7 1/2s or you can think to yourself "Hmm, maybe it's time I started looking at #8s".

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:06 pm 
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Here is my issue with pellet sizes......they are just like chokes. I start thinking more about which pellet sizes or chokes to use instead of getting into a preshot routine. For me, at least right now, the preshot routine is going to get me more X's than worrying about shot size and choke. A few months ago I started carrying spreader loads....that would start the internal debate as to whether I needed them or not......stopped carrying those too.

I only carry one shotshell load and leave my extra choke tubes in the truck.

That's my story and I am sticking to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm 
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marist89 wrote:

Better chance of getting 3 magic BBs in a target when there is more magic BBs.


Uh okay, if that's your theory... Now let's walk through the equally "theoretical" math on that: 1oz of 8's is 410 pellets and 1 oz of 7-½'s is 350, or 14% more #8 pellets. So for every "1 additional" COMPLETE #8 pellet you get on the target, you will also get a part of -- approximately 86% -- of a 7-½ striking an edge of the target. Now of course in practice, patterns are not ideally uniform due to pellet deformation, wind and a host of other anomalies. Moreover, physics implies that the heavier pellet will fly truer longer, and also achieve a slightly -- say 14% better -- pattern because it weighs 14% more than an 8... So in actual fact, I could easily get 3 full # 7-½'s and only 2 #8's with about the same frequency as the other way around -- I know, shock and awe right now :shock: :shock: :shock:

Thusly your "pellets on target theory" holds no water.

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The simple answer is, "K80, 32" flat-rib bbls, S&S custom stock, 55/45, Bornaghi 1oz 1250 7-½'s, M/M, Castelani, Lonesome Charlie, K-lube, qMaxx blue, Bore-snake, green Brake-cleen, and a very cold and dry Stoli martini."


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:36 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
Someone please explain to me how a 7-½ won't break a target that a 9 will break; or when a 9 will break a target and a 7-½ won't.


If that's your logic, then I assume that you shoot 7.5's in a Full choke at every target. After all, if a Skeet, IC, LM, Mod, or IM choke will break the target, then certainly a Full choke will break it. :roll: :roll:

And all those idiots breaking 100 straight with Skeet chokes and #8.5 or #9 shot obviously don't know anything either. :roll: :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:50 pm 
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JacksBack wrote:
marist89 wrote:

Better chance of getting 3 magic BBs in a target when there is more magic BBs.


Uh okay, if that's your theory... Now let's walk through the equally "theoretical" math on that: 1oz of 8's is 410 pellets and 1 oz of 7-½'s is 350, or 14% more #8 pellets. So for every "1 additional" COMPLETE #8 pellet you get on the target, you will also get a part of -- approximately 86% -- of a 7-½ striking an edge of the target. Now of course in practice, patterns are not ideally uniform due to pellet deformation, wind and a host of other anomalies. Moreover, physics implies that the heavier pellet will fly truer longer, and also achieve a slightly -- say 14% better -- pattern because it weighs 14% more than an 8... So in actual fact, I could easily get 3 full # 7-½'s and only 2 #8's with about the same frequency as the other way around -- I know, shock and awe right now :shock: :shock: :shock:

Thusly your "pellets on target theory" holds no water.

Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe the wind blows one more #8 further off it's line and it is the third magic pellet that breaks the target.

I'm not 100% convinced either way. I was a "7 1/2 for everything" guy, I'm just open-minded enough to consider something else.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:43 pm 
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So you're shooting 8's at the NE now?

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The simple answer is, "K80, 32" flat-rib bbls, S&S custom stock, 55/45, Bornaghi 1oz 1250 7-½'s, M/M, Castelani, Lonesome Charlie, K-lube, qMaxx blue, Bore-snake, green Brake-cleen, and a very cold and dry Stoli martini."


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:29 pm 
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Well, it is the combination of 3 things. Close distance, lots of small shot, open choke. Longer distance, fewer bigger shot, tighter choke. Just changing the shot size for close and far does not seem to make sense to me. But changing both choke and shot size might buy a target every once in a while?? Or not if you center them all the time.

We know what is optimum for skeet. We know what is optimum for trap. We shoot both those distances at sorting clays and have the option of changing what we are shooting for each station. But is thinking about it and actually changing the choke and shell too much of a distraction to make it worth while?


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:37 pm 
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Changing chokes and pellet sizes is playing the odds. Like matching up pitchers and batters. What you gain is maybe 1 or 2 targets in a 1000.......maybe. To me you can spend your time on more important parts of sporting clays.

Many pros are showing you what they think of changing chokes as they shoot fixed choked guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:04 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
Changing chokes and pellet sizes is playing the odds. Like matching up pitchers and batters. What you gain is maybe 1 or 2 targets in a 1000.......maybe. To me you can spend your time on more important parts of sporting clays.

Many pros are showing you what they think of changing chokes as they shoot fixed choked guns.


How did you arrive at that number? So you think that a skeet shooter shooting full chokes or a trap shooter shooting skeet chokes would lose only 1 or 2 targets per THOUSAND compared with their normal/average score??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't know if you saw that thread a few weeks ago of the All Around Clay Target Championship (or something like that) where they had to wait an extra minute or two for Anthony Matarese to go back and change chokes before the start of the shootoff. Apparently Anthony thinks that chokes matter. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:27 pm 
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This isn’t trap or skeet, where the distances are known.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:28 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
JacksBack wrote:
Someone please explain to me how a 7-½ won't break a target that a 9 will break; or when a 9 will break a target and a 7-½ won't.


If that's your logic, then I assume that you shoot 7.5's in a Full choke at every target. After all, if a Skeet, IC, LM, Mod, or IM choke will break the target, then certainly a Full choke will break it. :roll: :roll:

And all those idiots breaking 100 straight with Skeet chokes and #8.5 or #9 shot obviously don't know anything either. :roll: :roll:


Ulysses wrote:
JacksBack wrote:
Someone please explain to me how a 7-½ won't break a target that a 9 will break; or when a 9 will break a target and a 7-½ won't.


If that's your logic, then I assume that you shoot 7.5's in a Full choke at every target. After all, if a Skeet, IC, LM, Mod, or IM choke will break the target, then certainly a Full choke will break it. :roll: :roll:

And all those idiots breaking 100 straight with Skeet chokes and #8.5 or #9 shot obviously don't know anything either. :roll: :roll:


If someone is breaking 100% of targets on a sporting clays course with 9’s, They are shooting some mighty soft, fluffy targets. A 35-40 yard rabbit will eat 9s for breakfast, especially if it’s quartering a little. They just make a little dent and bounce right off. I’ve been lucky enough to work around a range for a long time. During down time friends and I would conduct different informal tests. Tight choke vs open on 70 yard chandelle’s, shot size effectiveness against the same 70 yard Chantelle or Battue, shot size vs long edgy standard targets, shot size vs rabbit targets just to name a few. The good thing about the rabbits is they can be easily found and analyzed after the shot. Close rabbits aren’t difficult to break. But when a rabbit passes 30 yards, things start to change. I’m sure most of us have shot a rabbit and everyone there said the pattern just covered it up, but not a single chip came off. Most of us have also shot this target and seen it jump or speed up at the shot, again without drawing the smallest chip. Go over and take a look at that target sometime. They are being hit, they just don’t break. I’ve seen rabbits hit with as many as 7. (8.5s) and not break. Not even a fracture or crack. 9s do even worse. I had a 7/8s oz load of 8.5s at 1300fps that did a really good job and would reach out pretty effectively. But on rabbits at distances over 35 yards, and much closer if they are quartering, that load just wasn’t very effective. You’d hit the target, but often it would not break. I can tell you on that type target, 5s, 6s, and 7s work even better than 7.5s. Tested on a closed range of course. I really don’t have anything against 8s and use them some, particularly with a little hotter load on standard targets.. They break targets a long ways. But to make things simple, I prefer my 1150+/- FPS load of 7.5s. The 7.5s help keep the energy up on my anemic loads.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:37 pm 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
This isn’t trap or skeet, where the distances are known.


If a sporting clays shooter can't estimate distances reasonably close, he won't likely be very successful. So how is it that a numbers guy like you who can say that chokes and shot size won't matter more than 1 or 2 targets in a THOUSAND, can't estimate distance very well.... and can't explain where the 1 or 2 targets per THOUSAND came from?

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:12 am 
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Digweed uses mostly 8's and shoots fixed full chokes.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:06 am 
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bdog58 wrote:
Well, the question that started this was, is there different shot sizes for different targets. Answer is, yes. How much so, depends on your skill, places you shoot and your goals.

Where one takes that, as one can read has a wide variety of opinions. We've heard from top shelf shooters, to chicken hunters and everyone in between. About as clear as mud. So to the OP, pick a theory and start. I'm sure you'll adjust and change as you go along.

One thing, I feel is correct. Be consistent. In ones approach and equipment. One can't manage what they don't measure....and its hard to manage a dip stick if its always changing.


Well said. Great post.

A few years back, I asked a noted ballistics expert if he shot sporting clays competively, what load(s) would he use. He told me basically “For shots under 30/35yards, mostly 1 ounce of 8s. For anything longer than that, 1 1/8 ounce of 7 1/2s.” Obviously edge on targets of lesser distance would also get the 7 1/2s.

Now, I truly understood the logic of that. So I tried it and found going back and forth with 1 ounce and 1 1/8 ounce shells didn’t work for me. I kept the velocities the same, but the change in recoil would give me what I recall as being constant mini-flinches. So, I shitcanned the whole idea.


Last edited by Mule Driver on Fri May 18, 2018 7:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:10 am 
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dogchaser37 wrote:
What you gain is maybe 1 or 2 targets in a 1000.......maybe.


Or maybe 1 or 2 targets in 100. But if you can win or loose by 1 target, and winning is important to you, then it might behoove you to switch pellet size and choke.


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 Post subject: Re: Shot size for different targets?
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:22 am 
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"I kept it in for 25 back targets. Same score as going out. Go figure."

I like to think that when I miss, I miss close so that at change in chokes might help. There was a guy on the trap forum, John Wall, who used to say "chokes are in inches, misses are in feet." Maybe he actually had it right.




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