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 Post subject: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:38 pm 
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What are the features that separate $2-4k guns from the $10k+ guns?

I’m not talking about just the wood upgrades or the level of engraving.

What features make those high end (or just really expensive) sporting guns worth spending an additional $4-6k that give you the edge competition wise?

Also, are said features worth the extra cost or does the value per dollar lessen as you go higher?

Thanks!




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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 4:46 pm 
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With a Perazzi, you can spec out the entire gun exactly to your liking from barrel lengths, types of chokes, detachable trigger, custom stock dimensions, types of ribs, etc. all included. The other high end guns lie Kolar and Kreighoff are built for serious competitive use as well, just comes down to what you want, purpose, and budget.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 5:58 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
With a Perazzi, you can spec out the entire gun exactly to your liking from barrel lengths, types of chokes, detachable trigger, custom stock dimensions, types of ribs, etc. all included. The other high end guns lie Kolar and Kreighoff are built for serious competitive use as well, just comes down to what you want, purpose, and budget.



Ah, that kind of makes sense for Perazzi. I know when doing custom stocks, they can get pretty expensive. Some of the less mid-range manufacturers *do* make stocks to your likings tho e.g. CG with a little added cost, but doesn't add up to the cost of a new Perazzi. The only item there that I see is a detachable trigger. What advantages does the detachable trigger give you at the highest competitive level that gives you edge? Or is it more of a convenience thing.

When you mention that the K's are built for serious competitive use, does that mean the others in the mid range like CG, Zoli, Blasers don't last? And in what way do they fall short? A lot of those can come in the different configurations you desire as well. I guess i'm just not understanding where that extra $$ is going into and how that translates into that one or two more clays getting busted that get you that #1-5 spot.

Thanks for indulging my curiosity though! Appreciate it!


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:59 pm 
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Sometimes it is all in what you can afford.

The high end guns are built better.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2018 10:22 pm 
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KRIEGHOFFK80 wrote:
Sometimes it is all in what you can afford.

The high end guns are built better.


Any specifics on how they are built better? Materials? Tolerances? Wear less / break less? Shoot more consistently given all the same variables? I’m genuinely curious.

What are the objective qualities specifically that make them worth thousands more. Or is it more of a subjective / branding thing like cars?

It’s fascinating to me to see the technology or things that go into building the finest instruments in the sport.

Thanks for your insight tho! I definitely get that you get the “best” for what you can afford. But what exactly helps you determine if it’s the best?

-Chu


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:08 am 
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Chu,

I don't mean to discourage discussions, but the subject you raised has been discussed MANY times in the past and, in my opinion, the end result is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to answer precisely why some guns are priced at $10,000 or higher while other guns that do the same thing and last about as long sell for perhaps 1/4 as much.

What it all boils down to is that shooters buy whatever they want to buy if they have the money for it and want to spend that money. They don't owe anyone else any explanation or justification for spending their own money. For some people, having an expensive gun is worth the nicer finish, perhaps better customer service, and prestige. For others, it isn't worth spending 4 times as much for the (perceived) slight extra gain.

So, buy whatever suits your taste and your budget and other shooters will do likewise, but don't expect to hear/read an item-by-item justification of each feature on an expensive gun that makes it 4 times (or 10 times) as expensive as a lesser priced gun that does essentially the same thing. This is intended as just a little helpful advice from someone who has been around this board for many years to someone who has been here for a couple of weeks. :)

Welcome to Shotgunworld and we hope you'll stick around a long time and enjoy yourself. {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:12 am 
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Amen Ulysses...............................................

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 9:35 am 
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Between registered targets and practice targets I shoot about 12,000 shells a year.

There have been years that I have shot over 10,000 registered targets and guessing 5,000 practice targets.

In 6 years I have only had my Krieghoff K80 serviced twice and once was for firing pins from shooting RIO's.

IMO there are very few cheaper guns that would do that.

But again it has a lot to do with what you can afford.

At a trap shoot a shooter was shooting a $165,000 gun. When ask why was he shooting a gun like that he said "Because I can."

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 10:10 am 
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Compare a Purdey or a Holland and Holland with just about anything else and you will see quickly what money buys you in terms of workmanship, finish, decoration, and just about anything else. Is it worth it? You be the judge.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:01 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 11:03 am 
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I bought my 1st Perazzi for 5 k and sold it for 5 k.
2d one , I paid 8200 , sold for 8700, 3d one 7600 , sold for 8900.

On each occasion I got a fancier gun. Now have 5.

Try that w/ a CG , or a Browning.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:02 pm 
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Ulysses wrote:
Chu,

I don't mean to discourage discussions, but the subject you raised has been discussed MANY times in the past and, in my opinion, the end result is that it is difficult, if not impossible, to answer precisely why some guns are priced at $10,000 or higher while other guns that do the same thing and last about as long sell for perhaps 1/4 as much.

What it all boils down to is that shooters buy whatever they want to buy if they have the money for it and want to spend that money. They don't owe anyone else any explanation or justification for spending their own money. For some people, having an expensive gun is worth the nicer finish, perhaps better customer service, and prestige. For others, it isn't worth spending 4 times as much for the (perceived) slight extra gain.

So, buy whatever suits your taste and your budget and other shooters will do likewise, but don't expect to hear/read an item-by-item justification of each feature on an expensive gun that makes it 4 times (or 10 times) as expensive as a lesser priced gun that does essentially the same thing. This is intended as just a little helpful advice from someone who has been around this board for many years to someone who has been here for a couple of weeks. :)

Welcome to Shotgunworld and we hope you'll stick around a long time and enjoy yourself. {hs#



I 100% understand what you’ve explained and I guess that really explains what I was trying to understand. Since my experience was very low, but I have the ability, should I choose, to spend very high I was just looking for what more experienced and longer term shooters have grown to value and willing to spend the extra money for.

For those of you that feel I may have been trying to stir up something that has maybe been a topic of much back and forth, forgive my newness into the sport. I recognize there are lots of things, as a new player to the game, that I’m very ignorant of and that’s why I posted this. I hope no one else took it in another light.

Thanks for all the explanations and it does give me a great sense and fulfillment to my curiosity.

“Because I can” is a very good answer too! I was just wondering if I was missing something. I spent the last month reading all the different manufacturer websites and all the “is this x brand worth” threads and kind of got a sense of what Ulysses was explaining. I just didn’t know if there was just some other thing I was missing. I think this is similar to other “toys” such as cars where I get people asking me why I spent a lot more on my car and my answer would be “because I think this feature is cool and it’s worth it for ME”. I’m getting the same sense here, and that’s great too! Boys and Toys :)

I guess all I have to do is get out there more and more and continue to have fun! And figure out what I want.

I look forward to many respectful discussions in the future and thanks for the welcome!


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Chu,

Thank you for taking my comments in the manner in which they were intended. There are a lot of knowledgeable, helpful people and a lot of good info on this site. Feel free to explore, ask questions, and contribute as much as you like.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 12:47 pm 
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Ulysses pretty much nailed it and explained it well. To me every "High End" gun I've gotten to handle just a "feeelll" to them that others didn't-Can't really explain it they just had "it" and you could tell when you shouldered them,swung them a bit and it lucky able to shoot some rounds through them :)

I was Blessed to be able to upgrade from my Ole 20+ year old Beretta 686 to a DT-11 and there is really no comparison between the 2 besides both being Beretta's :)

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 1:43 pm 
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hopper810 wrote:
Ulysses pretty much nailed it and explained it well. To me every "High End" gun I've gotten to handle just a "feeelll" to them that others didn't-Can't really explain it they just had "it" and you could tell when you shouldered them,swung them a bit and it lucky able to shoot some rounds through them :)

I was Blessed to be able to upgrade from my Ole 20+ year old Beretta 686 to a DT-11 and there is really no comparison between the 2 besides both being Beretta's :)



This is exciting. Hopefully with many more years down the road *health permitting* I could experience the same :). So far I’m loving every moment of it and hope the giddiness doesn’t fade.

-Chu


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 10:21 am 
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The beauty of the shotgun sports is that if your shotgun fits and shoots to where you are looking, there is no reason you can't shoot top scores with it, limited only by your shooting ability. This is not the case with certain precision shooting disciplines where even the most talented shooters will not win with inferior equipment.

Such being the case, the differences between say lower priced shotguns and higher priced shotguns will be attributed to things like cosmetics (grade of wood, engraving, precious metals etc), amount of hand fitting, level of customer service, quality of materials/finishes, level of engineering, economies of scale, and supply vs demand. Some makers are recognized for providing great value (performance & durability vs cost). Makers like Browning/Miroku, Beretta, CG are good examples and are why they are so often recommended to shooters starting out who are looking for quality, performance, durability and value. Shooters of similar skill level will have no advantage shooting a Krieghoff or Perazzi over a Browning or Beretta, assuming proper gun fit, other than maybe a psychological one. If you think it will make you shoot better, it might just make you pay more attention to your shooting or give you a confidence boost. However, no one is surprised to see a shooter shooting a Browning beating a shooter shooting a K or P gun. When you get up to the elite level of shooters, many of them are sponsored by a gun mfg. I shoot Brownings/Mirokus, and don't feel handicapped by them in any way. However, if I was to be offered a sponsorship to shoot a Blaser, Krieghoff or Perazzi, I would surely do so. There would be no reason not to. If one can afford them without having to feed your family only PBJ sandwiches, there is no reason not to go with with one of the high end guns. You've got to spend your money on something.


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:50 pm 
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I have to agree with twohigh. I will add that there is also a very common marketing concept here. Take the same wine and pour it into two bottles. Put $2 on one and $50 one the other. When we see the $2 price we automatically think it has to be wino grade stuff. Only fit for Grady off of Sanford and Son. We see the $50 price tag and think well, it may not be fit for the queen but it must be pretty good stuff. And then you buy the $50 bottle because of the perception that it must be better. We are trained from an early age to think this way. The higher priced gun is not attainable by all, if I buy one, there is some status that I have achieved among my peers. If you can afford it, go right ahead. But don’t expect your score to go up. Is the higher priced gun better. Possibly so, possibly not. Is the higher priced gun more aesthetically pleasing, generally yes. Some are works of art. My theory is that I can by 6 Brownings for the cost of one k gun. And I’ve never found a gun I shoot better than the browning I have now. And I’ve shot them all. If i found said gun, I’d buy it. But I know my scores are not limited because of the gun I shoot. That’s the least of my problems. Do I subscribe to the “It’s not whether You win or lose, it’s how You look that counts”. Not hardly. That was our football teams slogan when we were raising money for new uniforms.. Nobody says “man did you see those new uniforms, the team sure looked good, even though they lost”. But I do have to admit those high end guns look good, and one would definitely make me look better.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 10:04 pm 
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I enjoy shooting Browning shotguns and have found them them to be very durable guns. Typically all I have to do is clean them when I feel like doing so. I have shot some friends Perazzi shotguns and have found them to be very pointable. Seemed like all I had to do was point them in the general direction and they would break the clay! However, I have learned it is the shooter, not the gun, that makes the difference. A high end gun, like a Perazzi and Kreighof, will last longer but will not get you more targets. One of my older brothers who was a wealthy man and could afford to buy any gun in the world he wanted, shot a Browning Citori for years. I now own it. He upgraded to a K80 and I asked if his shooting improved. He said "no, it's the shooter, not the gun". He bought the Kreighof because he could, not because he was foolish to think it would make him a better shooter. A good shooter can shoot just about any gun and shoot well. A "not good" shooter" can't buy a gun that will make him shoot well.


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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2018 11:09 pm 
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Of course, there's the folks who could only afford, and likely out shoot any Citori or Miroku, with a Dick's $300 Remington 870 Express . To them, spending $1500 - $2000 on a shotgun is pure insanity. I'm sure they question what makes a Browning worth 5-6 times their shotgun......just sayin.

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 Post subject: Re: The value of high end sporting guns
PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 12:50 am 
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Putting aside wood, finishes, and engraving... the additional $$$ can be attributed to things like:

1. Drop out trigger
2. Boxlock vs. Sidelock
3. Barrel regulation/Soldering method
4. Type of lockup (Boss, etc.)
5. Fit/Tolerances
6. Adjustable Comb
7. CNC programing/Electrospark hardening
8. Metal quality (Boheler-Antnit steel, etc.)
9. Raised/Adjustable Rib
10. Modular components (eg. Blaser F3 barrels)
11. Adjustable weight
12. Trigger quality




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