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 Post subject: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 9:50 am 
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Based on the recent post on this subject and Tractorboys question regarding the aftermarket primer punch I contacted Creative Reloading Solutions. According to Rudy Vukas at CRS the punch will reform primer pockets and eliminate leakage. I am currently having problems with primer pocket leakage using WW209s in Rem STS 12 g hulls. After about 3 reloads a percentage of the hulls will leak. Enough hulls leak that after 100 rounds the breach face of my OU is pretty well covered in carbon, and I am sure gas is going back through the firing pin holes and depositing carbon in the trigger group. I have a batch of 1000 STS hulls that have been loaded four times that I am working on now. I ordered one of the punches and will give it a try on these hulls and report back on the leakage issue. Rudy said I could send the punch back if it did not solve the problem.




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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 11:55 am 
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I use the CRS die in 12ga as do my son and several friends..... I adjust the die each time I switch brands of hull, I keep one of each type cut off at the top of the rim to adjust carefully. I start "just touching" and then go 1/4 turn further.... I set for each "family" of hulls, I had assumed Rem was Rem but found one batch of Nitro27 was different that either the STS or the Gold......
I have started putting a dab of action grease on my finger when I lube it before shooting and apply just a bit to the face of the receiver, gives things something to slide on and seems to make that area a breeze to clean after shooting......... Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 5:38 pm 
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Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:20 am
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Location: Deep South
Got my primer pocket punch from BPI and have used it a lot.
What I did shortly after I received mine, was go down to the railroad track, near the bridge that goes over the Mulberry Fork of the Warrior River (at Garden City, Alabama) and found myself a good size tie plate. That is what I use for a foundation/base when I whack a hull with the primer pocket punch. Works great.
Thanks, CSX Railroad.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:46 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:12 am
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My experience with primer pockets has been that they vary from manufacturer to manufacturer....I can tell a difference when seating primers in different brands of brass...also it depends on how "hot" the loads you are shooting, because that stresses the brass as well......I have some 38 spl cases that I have reloaded 20 plus times and I can just about seat primers in them by pressing the case down on the primer if it is on a solid surface. Primer pockets will become worn & open up a bit as the brass is shot over and over, particularly if you are cleaning the primer pockets which I always do. Sometimes you can "tighten" primer pockets by taking a flat faced punch and dropping it down into the case mouth, center it on the flash hole, then tapping on the punch with a hammer. Typically when I have brass that is that worn, I "retire" the cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:28 am 
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Some of stuff pertaining to metallic reloading does not apply to shotgun and only tends to add confusion in the minds of those that try to compare.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 6:45 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 9610
Location: Fairport NY
On the back of my bench vise there is a small rectangular flat area for use as an "anvil". I use that as a base for my Precision Reloading) primer pocket correction tool. It works well. (Any heavy piece of steel with a small flat area will work well.) My Dad kept a short (about 6") piece of railroad track with a flat ground on it for emergency "anvil" use when some home repair of other job required it..

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:22 pm 
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Differences in construction and pressures point out the need for understanding and different processes with cartridge or hulls. The solid construction of a cartridge has to withstand extreme pressures and is basically a pocket drilled (or punched) through a solid piece of brass. When cutting open a shotgun hull one immediately notices the almost delicate construction from super light brass (or steel) and in many cases it is the plastic in the hull or even the construction of a base wad that aids in the securing of the primer...... Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 8:00 am 
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Well I got the UPP and here is my report:

The punch is a PIA to set up on a 9000E because you have no "feel". You also have to remove and replace the primer feed assembly which I always find to be a PIA to adjust. I ended up screwing the punch up high enough so that it was just barely punching the primers out. I then would put a primer in the deprimed hull by hand and see how much resistance there was. On this set of hulls (3 previous reloads) the primers would fully seat with finger pressure only. Then I screwed the punch down one full turn and checked again. I continued this process until I got to the point that I could only push a primer in the deprimed hull about 1/3 of the way with finger pressure. I then backed off half a turn and the primers would go about 2/3 of the way with only finger pressure. The UPP definitely conditions the hulls so more force is required to seat the primer but I am not sure that it will eliminate leakage.

Of the last 200 rounds that I fired I found four obvious leakers with black residue around the outside of the primer pocket. I deprimed these four hulls with the UPP and cleaned the brass with brake cleaner on a q-tip then dried. Loaded these four hulls and fired in my OU. After firing I wiped the bases of the four hulls with a q-tip with brake cleaner and saw very little discoloration of the q-tip. I think this indicates that on these four hulls leakage was greatly reduced if not eliminated.

I then loaded 200 rounds with the UPP and will shoot them on Thursday to see if I can see any less carbon deposit on my breach face. I will report the results.

A word of warning: The MEC adapter for the UPP is a very thin tube that is threaded on the inside and outside resulting in very little metal and strength where the threads overlap. Be very careful not to overtighten the UPP to your machine. After loading the 200 shells I checked the amount of conditioning of the primer pocket and decided I wanted a little less. When I tried to loosen the adjustment lock nut the UPP came loose from the machine. I tried to tighten the MEC adapter to the machine to assure that the lock nut would release before the adapter released from the machine and ended wringing the adapter in two. Just snug the adapter to the machine and always use a 5/8 " THIN wrench to hold the adapter when trying to loosen the lock nut. The good news was that when I reported this problem to CRS Rudy immediately sent me another adapter gratis.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 2:37 pm 
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The CRS punch cannot resize the metal, the best it can do is squish the plastic a bit.

If you want the leakage and loose primer issue to stop, you have resize the metal head. That requires a primer pocket tool from either Precision Reloading or BPI.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 4:32 pm 
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Thanks for the response Mark. I understand that the CRS punch should not resize the metal portion of the primer pocket. It is not worth it to me to manually resize the pockets with the BPI tool. I can tell you if you lower the CRS punch low enough you can not push a primer in over half way with your fingers where the same hull prior to using the CRS punch allows you to fully seat the primer with finger pressure only. Just looking at the construction of the STS hulls it sure "appears" that the metal portion of the primer pocket is what is preventing further insertion of the primer with finger pressure. I am not trying to argue with you, just reporting my observations. If the CRS punch will reduce leakage I will be happy.
Terry


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:13 pm 
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Honestly, I have never had any issue with primer leakage with any Remington unibody hull. Starting with the Blue Magic hulls to the current STS/Nitro hulls and everything in between. I have used either Winchester or Federal primers pretty much exclusively since the early 1990’s. I have never had a primer fall out or otherwise, and for a good portion of those years including the last 11, I have shot autoloaders. But, I also do not try to see how long I use a hull, 5 maybe 6 reloads is about it. Many hulls including Gun Clubs are one and done lately.

No argument from me.....we all have different experiences.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 5:10 am 
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I am in the same boat as you Mark. I have loaded RXPs, Blue Magics, Premiers, Gun Clubs and the current family of STSs for many years with no leakage problems at all. The leakage issue has only come up recently but I am not the only one who is experiencing it. I know of at least two other guys that I shoot with that are having issues with Rem hulls after 2 or 3 reloads. Not a lot of leakers but enough to be noticeable, maybe 2-3 per hundred. All are with WW209 primers in Rem hulls. None of us can figure out what has changed. Old once fired hulls or new production once fired hull does not seem to matter.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 6:22 am 
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Location: Fairport NY
Most primer pocket leakage I have observed is when hulls are given to me by a buddy. When asked, he usually has reloaded 'em once with Euro primers (larger O.D.) because they were cheaper. (I normally can tell when reloading, as I can "feel" the difference when repriming on a single-stage reloader.)

So I deprime 'em all and use my Precision Reloading tool rather than observing leakage on my guns.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:42 pm 
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With all the straight wall hulls laying on the ground now, I have gotten to the point that I shoot once fired hulls almost exclusively.....one and done.

`

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 8:00 pm 
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Shot 100 shells yesterday that were reloaded with the CRS primer punch. Carbon on the breach face of my OU was greatly reduced but not eliminated. I am satisfied that at a minimum the punch reduces primer leakage. I intend to lower the punch a little and see if there is any additional improvement.


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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 12:27 pm 
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I have a very simple solution to fix up any leaking hulls! Throw them in the bucket after shooting them. There is no sense in spending good money on a tool to save a hull that is worth .05 a piece being a 1x fired. Shotgun shells are not brass, and should not be treated like them. Even brass has a limited life span.

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 Post subject: Re: Primer Pocket Leakage II
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 5:16 pm 
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WAG,,, I have the 9000H..... never used an E. To set the punch on my machine I take a de-primed hull and cut away the plastic at the base, then make sure the punch does not reach the pocket on the down-stroke and secure the press in that down position. I would guess you could do similar on the E? With the die down I then turn the decapper till it contacts the primer pocket. I then allow the press to finish the cycle, turn the decap down 1/4 turn and lock in place..... only takes a minute to do..... Only time I ever make a change is when I load a different hull (GM, AACF,etc). I notice the face around the firing pin hole stays MUCH cleaner........ I seldom load a hull more than a couple times but that is by choice, not because I would really need to. As far as cost, with Gamaliel out of the picture the CRS version is about the same cost as the standard MEC part and does much more..... Larry




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