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 Post subject: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 7:41 pm 
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I’ve always used the CB1100-12 as a WAA12SL.
I use Lyman 5th addition load data.
Win AA HS hull
Win209
Red dot - 17 gn.
CB1100-12
1oz lead
This gives me 1180fps 9,200psi.
Honestly I’m throwing a heavy 17. I average between 17.2 - 17.5.

I just checked out Alliant Load data for red dot. It shows load data for the WAA12SL and the CB1100-12. The pressures and FPS aren’t the same. And neither of them at 17gn. of red dot match the FPS and psi that Lyman’s list.

So my question is. Is the CB1100-12 not a perfect clone to the WAA12SL? Also in your opinion what data would be more accurate?

The reason I started looking is a guy I have learned a ton from at the club told me I should bump up the FPS a bit to getter better breaks.

Am I reading way to much into this? Or maybe with the 1oz load should I switch to a different powder? I’m just about ready to get more.




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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:12 pm 
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According to the Alliant website, you have lots of upside room to push the velocity with Red Dot and your components. Although I don't think it is your shells that are causing you to miss targets. :)

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:22 pm 
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He wasn’t talking about misses. He was saying it might make a one target per round or so difference if I were to be hitting the clays a bit harder. Which I’ve never even thought about really. But he was saying if your off a tad and only catch an edge you want to hit it hard enough to make sure you break it. Then showed me a clay with a hole in it that wasn’t broke he had in the back of his truck.

Another guy who was setting next to us did say though and I’m sure he has a valid point even though he was joking, he said the problem isn’t that I’m hitting the clays soft but it’s that all I ever do is catch edges lol.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:31 pm 
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The differences you are seeing between your 2 sources could be caused by many factors.
different lot # in the powder
different test equipment
to name two.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:44 pm 
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Bump it up a grain, and if you think it will help, it will help. It's mostly a mind game, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:30 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
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unless you are shooting long handicaps, I think the 1150-1200 FPS range is fine. There are A LOT of trap shooters that use exactly this.

Some years ago I exchanged E-Mails with Ben Amonette at Alliant. I told him I appreciated that they did include some data for both CB wads and WW. He responded that they were always glad to hear customers were happy but generally the AA wads and the CB clones of them perfomed very similar and could be considered interchangeable.

Oregunner is absolutely correct. If you believe up above 1200 FPS works better, it will. And, if you believe it will have a lot more recoil, it will.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 8:52 am 
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rcleofly,

I looked at the data from Alliant. The data is very close between the two sources. Both Lyman and Alliant have rounded off their velocity data, especially Alliant. As for pressure, a 1,200 PSI difference isn't really much of a pressure difference.

There really isn't much difference between the two wads either.

Have confidence in whichever data you choose.

Claybuster clone wads generally produce less chamber pressure than the OEM wad they are replacing, however if you look at the data both wads require the same amount of powder to get basically the same velocity.

Forget the pressure figures because all ranges of velocity up to 1300 FPS, with both wads are safe with the components you are using.

If you think more velocity will help try 18.0 grains of Red Dot and see what you think. You can easily increase the drop to 19.5 grains of Red Dot with no issue.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:26 am 
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Location: Charlotte, NC
More velocity? Humm. If you are anywhere near 1200 fps, you are fine. Any more velocity may well result in more ragged patterns, particularly at longer distances...a good, coherent pattern is much more important than increased velocity. Some of the degradable clays are a bit tougher to break. Just use #7.5's, particularly at 40 yards or more, and #8's are fine for the shorter stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 11:10 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:12 am
Posts: 57
Old AA, CB1100-12, 17.8 Promo, 1 oz hard 8.5s & WW209 for 16 and first doubles.

Into my third case. I hear people say they leave too much in the barrel, but I clean the guns regularly so have not had big issues with that.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 1:15 pm 
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Win basic break down

win12 (white or orange in the WT12), CB1118-12 and CB0118-12 used for 1 1/8oz
Win 12sl (semi long,salmon color), CB1100-12 used for 1oz load
Win 12l (long, grey), CB0178-12 used for 7/8oz loads
CB has offered a win12 type clone that could be called RL for really long neo pink CB0175-12 for 3/4oz loads.

As for the over lap, just depends on the hull, and power type, since when you get into the SL, L, and RL wads, SL may be short for the load to get the ideal hull fill if your using a dense spherical powder, and may need the L wad isntead.

In 20, and quick shot of wad lenghts for 7/8 loads, and what may work in say a HS hull like the CB wad with unique to get the ideal hull fill, changes to a STS hull and may need the WJ10 or DRV-20 wad isntead.
Image

Also to point out, manufacturers like downrange has wad lengths between say a 12 and 12sl, so keep this in mind as well if you need a hull lenght between one manufactors wad lengths instead. Regarding loading data, would dare to guess that over 60% of the loads listed, don't fit the hulls to ideal fills to start with. Hence has the top of shot to the bottom line of the hulls fold line with the data listed.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 7:37 pm 
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Thanks everyone for your input.

Does promo meter the same as Red Dot?

I loaded 2 boxes with 18gn. I took 4 boxes, 2 with 17gn. and 2 with 18gn. I took the two boxes with 18gn. And put a small sticker in the bottom of the box. Then I shuffled the boxes around a million times. I’m going to shoot them not knowing what box is what until after I’m done with my round. My pouch holds the box so I won’t see the sticker until the end. This way it won’t be a mental thing at all. I want to see if it makes any difference at all. I’ve made so much progress and put so much work into getting my scores where they are. I don’t want to do anything that will decrease my scores. Only want to increase them.
I should also say that I use a Mec 600 Jr. Mark V. Going from 17gn. to 18gn. Red dot didn’t make to much of a difference with my adjustments. I didn’t change a thing.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 9:45 pm 
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No,
On promo, you use the same "weight" as Red Dot for the loads, but the two powders will not meter volume weight drop the same (weight per volume drop) through the same bushing.

So since Promo will very per lot of drop weight via bushing volumesize/ will not be the same as Red dot, you have to play with a few bushing to get the ideal drop weight per volume bushing size with Promo (and every new lot# change of promo as well).


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12b
PostPosted: Wed May 09, 2018 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 73
I doubt you will see much difference in your breaks with the small velocity change. Many times I have gone out for practice and had mixed loads from 7/8-1oz and anywhere from 1125-1250fps along with shot sizes from 8.5-7.5. Percentage of target breaks remained the same. However, I have seen some difference in break quality when using 7.5 vs 8.5s on long edgy targets and longer rabbits. I picked up a rabbit that I shot with 8.5s that had 7 total pellet strikes and 5 holes that did not break. Quartering rabbits are fairly prone to glancing blows. Especially from smaller pellets. Anymore, I just use 7.5s for everything and normally run speeds of 1125-1175fps. The 7.5s are used mainly because I shoot a lot of very long Targets and they carry a little more energy and lose less velocity downrange. You’ll find that a load of 8s at 1225 and a load of 7.5s at 1175 are pretty close velocity wise after forty yards since the lighter 8s shed velocity and energy faster.
I’ve worked around the range for years. If your range manager will allow, take a look at different piles of targets after they have been shot. You will find a lot of targets with holes in them that did not break. Mostly holes straight through from the top or underside. You’ll also see some edges, where pellets glanced off without breaking. Bio targets are especially bad about letting Targets blow through. You’ll see dust, but it won’t break.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:21 am 
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Location: Danville, AL
Hitting the target harder is a relative thing. From the energy of a single pellet stand point, you would have to increase you shot speed to around 1300fps to get an appreciable increase in energy. I think what would help more is to look at you pattern density. Every gun patterns differently with different loads. Go out a pattern your gun with your current load to establish a baseline pattern. Then load some shells with small increases of powder. Then pattern the new loads and compare the patterns to your baseline. You may find your gun patterns better with a little faster load.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:31 am 
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rmiddlemas wrote:
More velocity? Humm. If you are anywhere near 1200 fps, you are fine. Any more velocity may well result in more ragged patterns, particularly at longer distances...a good, coherent pattern is much more important than increased velocity.

^^^THIS^^^

I have to agree with rmiddlemas. 1200 fps is more than enough velocity. I would also encourage you to consider downrange pellet velocities. The faster we start a pellet out, the faster it slows down. If you shoot a 7 1/2 pellet at 1295 fps, at 30 yards its velocity is 795 fps. If you shoot that same pellet at 1200 fps. At 30 yards its velocity is 760 fps. So the velocity difference is only 35 fps different. The difference in energy at 30 yards is 1.74 ft/lbs vs. 1.59 ft/lbs. At longer distances the margin decreases further. I do not think faster shells are going to gain you any more targets. Oh...and we have not discussed if the higher velocities will affect your/the shooters accuracy in any negative way.

Having written all of this however, I am very aware there is a vocal group that feels that higher velocities are better and will not be convinced otherwise.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:48 am 
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Most of this is all what works best for each individual's 6" between the ears.

In the end there probably isn't enough practical difference to bother with.

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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 3:09 pm
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Location: Eastern Nebraska
A couple years back a very experienced trap shooter told me:
If you are at the 16 yard line, put the lead on the target and it will break. It really doesn't matter what size it is or how fast it is going, put it on the target, the target will break.
Wise man!
However, is it easier to put the lead on the target with some loads? It is, if you think it is. If you think it won't work, it won't. That 6 inches dogchaser refers to will get you every time.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:52 pm 
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So I shot all 4 boxes. Makes no difference. But, the guys at the club have definitely had a good time watching me boggle my brain over what would be better. Lol, honestly I shot like crap with all 4 boxes. Probably distracted with my loads. I’m just sticking to my normal load. It works, it’s clean, I shoot well with it. They smell good lol. Sometimes I think some of the guys at the club like to mess with the rookie.


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 Post subject: Re: WAA12SL VS. CB1100-12
PostPosted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:48 pm 
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From the OP:

Quote:
Am I reading way to much into this?

I think he has answered his own question.



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