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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:17 am 
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BUT.... we have to remember to ALWAYS check the bore to make sure it is clear after a "blooper" is fired, or a load sounds "poofy". If that occurs and leaves a wad in the bore, and it is NOT removed, the next shot (no matter how safe the load inside it is) will PROBABLY rupture the barrel. (And I have seen guns that have done this twice.) It ain't pretty!



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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:48 am 
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Location: Newton Kansas
A barrel obstruction is an entirely different animal than an over-pressure load, not even remotely the same or connected in the slightest.

Obstructions blow up gun barrels all the time, and not just bloopered wads, but mud, wrong (smaller) shotgun shells, and mud wasp nests apparently too.

If people would stop playing Blooper Roulette convincing themselves that their low-pressure shotgun shells somehow magically reduce their recoil there'd be a lot fewer blown up shotgun barrels in the world every year.
In 35 yrs of loading shotgun shells I've experienced precisely 1 blooper, which in reality was a friend's blooper, in his shotgun, from his load, after he screwed up and let the powder measure run dry, in the middle of a pasture 2 miles from the truck hunting Mr. Ringneck and Bob White in NW Ks. in December (cold).
I don't even own a wad knocker, never needed one.
It was a good thing I was concealed carrying a .45 that day because a round of that from a spare magazine was heavy enough to make a decent wad knocker when dropped down the barrel and shook up and down a few times to "pile-drive" the wad back down.
No way a 9mm round would have been heavy enough.

That's been 7 or 8 yrs ago, I still don't own a wad knocker.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 11:56 am 
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Location: Newton Kansas
dogchaser37 wrote:
Before we start giving anyone stupid ideas or make it seem like anyone condones questionable reloading techniques......if you adhere to good data and good reloading procedures all this talk of blowing things up versus being over SAAMI MAP is meaningless.

While I agree that you aren't going to destroy a 12 gauge shotgun using ammo that produces a chamber pressure of 11,600 PSI, it isn't correct to deliberately use reloaded ammo over SAAMI MAP for a certain gauge.

The safety margins are there for a reason, they protect us. The more chances you take the more comfortable you get with being sloppy, eventually it will catch up to you.

Agreed dogchaser, every single word of it.

Use good reloading data, which is EASY to acquire today, make a decent good-faith effort to follow that data, try to stay within that data, don't deliberately take un-needed chances, and you will never have a "safety" issue that puts fingers or facial features in peril.

Then, worry about something worth worrying about............. how many days ago did you make that leftover Chicken Salad in the fridge you plan to have for lunch?

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 12:04 pm 
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Location: Newton Kansas
Nebs wrote:
This discussion has been very useful and I thank you for it. It provided me with some helpful perspective. I see now there is very little I can do, if I start with a published load, to make a load that will cause my gun blow up. I'm always willing to be educated.

I'm still concerned the higher pressure loads will recoil more [not].

"Perspective" is something that I find often gets lost Nebs, and it is easy to lose if you focus too much on the micro, you lose the macro.
Failing to see the forest because of the trees.

Nowadays in The Internet Age I see it happen more and more in Noobs to metallic reloading.
They go instantly from "getting started" to obsessing over .001" OAL variance, seating off the lands a "best" distance, concentricity, neck vs. full-length sizing, primer pocket cleanliness/uniformity/flash hole deburring, bullet jacket concentricity and uniformity, and the 101 other tiny minutia things that are of little to no value to 90% of shooters out there (due to limited shooting skill).

They see these things on you-tube videos, they see discussions on Long Range Shooter competition forums, and instantly decide they need to do this too in order to make "good" ammo.

Perspective matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 2:50 pm 
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Oldstuffer,

We are in agreement.

Many times there is a discussion on some methods or components or ballistics or whatever about shotshells, which really doesn't amount to much in the big scheme. These items are fun to talk about but sometimes folks take the discussions to heart or make them a big deal.

Reloading is really a simple task and sometimes we make too much out of nothing......and there are times when I am as guilty of that as the next guy.

I am doing my best to remember how simple and enjoyable it is to reload and keep the BS discussions to a dull roar.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 10:30 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:54 pm
Posts: 139
I must be doing this all wrong. When I get a gnarley crimp, I put a piece of masking tape on the crimp to keep shot from falling out, then get my big black magic marker and put an "X" on the base. I toss that hull after shooting. If you really want to get fancy you could use glue or wax instead of tape.


Last edited by nikko12 on Fri May 18, 2018 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:11 pm 
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Well this has been a nicer than expected result ;) For a bit there the thread started deviating, but it came back nicely with all stuff I can solidly agree with ;)

My experience with AA 28ga on MEC9000 is about 1 gnarly misaligned crimp per 200 shells, but it shoots just fine.
12ga Gunclubs, 1 gnarly per 400 shells on MEC9000.

If I take the time to pick the crimp open and reform the appropriate # of petals with my fingers, it then crimps fine. I think it's all based on my pre-crimp not being aligned right and then not spinning just right every once in a while, probably a hull that got stepped on or something and the crimp had a weird fold on it...


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 6:39 am 
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Some while ago I noticed 4 slight indents on the side of the hull at the crimp. The crimp starter has 4 ridges at 90° to each other.... I assume for centering purposes. Depending on the diameter of the mouth of the hull they also prevent the spindex on my 9000 from spinning at times. I removed those 4 ridges...... at least 2000 shells have passed through machine since I did this..... might just be accident but no "gnarly" crimps........ Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:49 am 
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llc wrote:
Some while ago I noticed 4 slight indents on the side of the hull at the crimp. The crimp starter has 4 ridges at 90° to each other.... I assume for centering purposes. Depending on the diameter of the mouth of the hull they also prevent the spindex on my 9000 from spinning at times. I removed those 4 ridges...... at least 2000 shells have passed through machine since I did this..... might just be accident but no "gnarly" crimps........ Larry


Those ridges are supposed to pick up the previous fold creases and pre-align the spindex to the previous folds. You get the wacky messed up crimps when you put a hull in the press that has a misshapen mouth that leads the spindex astray. It also happens when you try to reload a hull that had a wacky crimp before and it looks kind of squarish going before the spindex.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:07 pm 
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I very recently had a WAA hull come out of pre crimp with four folds lol. I was like wtf. Tried to pull it all back up and get it straightened out for like 15 minutes hitting it with the pre crimp then pulling it all back out over and over. Finally I gave up. I did have a hull I didn’t catch then I stepped on it. I’m just going to assume it was that hull. I have noticed over time if you have a hull that is out of round or kind of funky in the beginning of the process, it will normally end up funky at the end of the process.


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Mon May 21, 2018 7:34 pm 
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Some may be ugly on the outside but beautiful on the inside, and vice versa.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 8:39 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:28 am
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I will get 5 or 6 Gnarly closures per flat (250) of 28 gauge AAHS hulls when reloading: The problem is the pre-crimp fails to fallow the former crimp on the hull. Now I mark the hull with a Magic Marker and when I reload again, I look to see if it took a “Good” crimp. It will be about 50% of the time (my guestamation) that it will crimp O.K. If it comes out “Funky” again I mark with a second mark and toss it when done.

As for shooting the “Gnarly”, I have never missed a target that I think was caused by the crimp, it was “operator error.”

Just my thought on this subject.

Ken

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:51 pm 
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Today before I went to the club I knocked out a box. I had another hull come out of pre crimp all gnarly looking. I took the precrimp out of the hull and hit on the pre crimp station with my old lee load all then ran it through the final crimp on my mec and voila it came out like brand new. Sometimes I think the precrimp on my mec doesn’t quite line up properly. On the lee load all you have to line it up so I can control how the precrimp falls by rotating the hull.


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:46 am 
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Location: South of the Red
rcleofly wrote:
I very recently had a WAA hull come out of pre crimp with four folds lol... Tried to pull it all back up and get it straightened out for like 15 minutes hitting it with the pre crimp then pulling it all back out over and over. Finally I gave up... I have noticed over time if you have a hull that is out of round or kind of funky in the beginning of the process, it will normally end up funky at the end of the process.


Similar experience for me loading AAHS 12ga on a Dillon progressive. I consistently ran about a 4% failure rate, with an 8-point hull coming out of the crimp die w/a 4-pt crimp. It was clearly an issue with the pre-crimp not-aligning to the hull.

I recent found what appeared to be a Win Estate (white box) 12-ga hull on the ground at a SC-station... the hull was 'curved' slightly (visibly deformed) with a perfect crimp. I later dissected the hull and found the gas-seal on the AA-wad snagged on the base-wad of the hull... just like we sometimes experience handloading AAHS.

That damaged gas-seal forced the wad to rest 'crooked' in the hull interior, and once crimped, the hull was 'curved'.

For 'gnarley' crimps, I salvage the shot, powder and primer, and frequently find damaged wads; same kind of thing -- snagged gas-seal.

My yields have improved significantly to the point that I now have less than 1 crimp failure out of approx. 500 shells or so using a different press.

A couple of months ago, I had a shell not crimp correctly -- big hole in the crimp, about 3/16-in diameter. I unloaded hull, salvaged the shot, straightened the crimp-folds, and measured the hull -- It was 0.058-in shorter than the other AAHS shells I was loading (measured w/a B&S dial caliper).

I'm curious how Win gets such a short shell to close?

Capt_C


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:23 am 
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Holy cow. That’s almost a 1/16” of an inch. I have a ton of AAHS. I’ll keep an eye out and see if I find any extremely short ones. I have noticed slight variations in length but nothing that extreme. But, lately I’m shooting so much I don’t hardly look at the hulls. Just pumping out as many loads as I can.


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 8:45 am 
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One approach to the issue of inconsistent hull length, an issue not confined to any particular brand of hull, they all suffer from it, is to cull some short ones and adjust your crimp dies so the hole closes up. Then, you will just have to live with the swirl crimps you will get on the longer hulls.

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:37 am 
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An observation on several hulls, mostly straight wall, is that the one ounce offerings are often in a shorter hull than the 1 1/8 loadings..... Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:52 am 
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llc wrote:
An observation on several hulls, mostly straight wall, is that the one ounce offerings are often in a shorter hull than the 1 1/8 loadings..... Larry
Very interesting observation. I wonder if all the hulls that initially held 9/8 oz. of shot are always taller than hulls initially loaded with 1 0z. of shot. Are the manufacturers using hull length variation to help with stack height differences between the two loads?

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 Post subject: Re: Gnarley closure
PostPosted: Thu May 24, 2018 11:45 am 
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Nebs, I first observed this while loading some AACF hulls, I could not understand why some looked so nice and some looked like a bee stung the crimp.... I then read the info on the hull..... since then I have noticed it on some Nitro27 and some Fed Gold Medal. I cannot be brand specific on the other SW where I noticed differences as I paid no attention to what they were. 3 or 4 different Wallyworld offerings..... various WW target and so on.... I would just make sure of a nylon basewad and load once and discard. My standard practice was to discard the various shorter 1oz hulls. Larry




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