It is currently Fri May 25, 2018 3:43 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Image



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2018 3:52 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Hello,

I recently acquired an A. Fergeron 12 gauge. I've been doing research on the stamps and would appreciate insight to make certain my interpretations are correct. I'm finding very little of depth available regarding this Manufacturer. I have read several posts on this site and others, but information regarding specific models, history, etc. seems to not be accessible, at least in English.

I have been around firearms my entire life, but this is a new foray into a potentially "classic" double. But that term has confused me in regards to Damascus vs Fluid barrels, and the Fergeron may not fit regardless. But it has been fun none the less.

I sincerely appreciate your insight and am very thankful for any knowledge you are willing to share.

Very truly, Rob

What I believe the firearm to be:
Alphonse Forgeron under the make of J Boluange (sp?)
Year of Manufacture 1937 (cursive "P")
12 gauge, chambered 2.5" (12-65 in Omega, same both barrel flats, bad lighting in photo)
Choked 18.5/18.3 or Cyl/Skeet
Black Powder Proofed, Smokeless Powder Proofed, but not Nitro Proofed?
Inspector Stamp a possible shared stamp for succession due to the appearance of combined "AH"- "A" being Wolt Nicolas Cominoto, "H" being Wolt Christophe

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 2:12 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:22 am
Posts: 43
Smokeless powder and Nitro powder mean the same thing in this case, the PV mark means it was proofed with nitro powder. RST 2 1/2" shotshells are your friend, it wasn't meant to be shot with modern 2 3/4 shells.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:17 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Well done, on the gun AND the marks :) except it is Forgeron
http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar ... n%20gb.htm
18.3 is the bore at .720 and "CHOKE" means a muzzle constriction of at least .008"

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:24 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you Steve and Drew.

It goes in next week for a safety check and professional cleaning with a gunsmith. I traded fishing equipment for it with the hope I could back into learning more about it. I keep re-reading the littlegun.be web site, learning more regarding Forgeron and the development of the Belgium manufacturing trade with each visit.

Assuming it clears safety check I will be ordering a case of RST 2.5"

I've come across acronyms in this process:
JABC = Just Another Belgian Clunker

There is a 2nd I've seen but can't seem to come across it again. It is possibly BLNC?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 5:49 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Happy to help. NOT a JABC

BLNE = Box Lock Non-Ejector

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:19 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you Drew.

I sincerely appreciate your stickies with the stamp information. Serendipitous that the sample picture was the lower case cursive "P", that one had me a bit confused.

I need to see if I can find a magnifying glass to pick-up a couple of the other barrel markings. Looks like an examiner mark and possibly a barrel mfg mark.

Much more fun knowing where/how to look for the information. Too accustomed to the chamber info stamped on the barrel.

After she's polished up I'll post "finished" pictures and if I can pull the other marks up.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 26, 2016 5:22 am
Posts: 43
Rob_Fug wrote:
Thank you Steve and Drew.



I've come across acronyms in this process:
JABC = Just Another Belgian Clunker



As noted, it is a fine vintage gun and definitely not a clunker, however there were a lot of clunkers made in Belgium. Mr. Russ Ruppel, a talented gunsmith who frequented the Double Gunshop website, and who has since passed away, came up with the JABC acronym. People kept coming onto the DGS forum and asking about their family heirloom SxS from Belgium, which almost always was a lower grade gun with no monetary value. Mr. Ruppel would swear up and down he was never going to answer another question about a poorly made Belgian gun, then next time around he would go on and explain the only value was sentimental and it needed to be consigned to wallhanger status. Maybe TMI but 'JABC' still lives on the 'net even after Mr. Ruppel has passed on.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:11 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Thank you Steve, a very good memorial. I have an appreciation for Mr. Ruppel's willingness to help and the community that has made this discussion possible.

I am more frequent to duck, decoy and boat forums. And have sworn similarly against people that anticipate "old" adds monetary value, but continue to aid when it seems someone is genuinely naive as compared to trying to "pump" their ego.

I also recently acquired an Ithaca LeFever Nitro Special, two barrel set (28" F/M, 26" M/IC). Unfortunately, the 2nd set was not serial number matched, but fitted by a competent gunsmith. A fine hardware store gun that I paid $50 too much for due to a sentimental fact that a favorite author used the gun and wrote of it a bit in his hunting stories.

My French is terrible, but I found an article that if I can translate might help a bit as it seems the sentiment of the article is the work produced in the Forgeron House is not appreciated at the level of quality it produced. It would also indicate the Gun Values Books are listing what would appear to be post-WWII Le Fergeron under Joseph Boulanger and his son Georges, due to the inclusion of model #'s, of which I have not found any model # listings for the decade of succession from Alphonse to J Boulanger or prior. These Forgeron arms seem to only be listed as "A. Forgeron 12/70" or similar at auction or retail. It does appear they may also be listed as a Belgian Guild Gun at times, due to lacking name notoriety: https://www.pressreader.com/france/armes-de-chasse/20140701/281659663303329

I hope I can add to the conversation. Very best, Rob


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2018 9:07 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 5:23 pm
Posts: 67
JABC... I like that. I have one... Neumann Co.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 6:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Dropped the Le Forgeron off at the gunsmith this afternoon for a safety check and some professional cleaning.

First thing determined is the chambers had been lengthened to 2 3/4".

Curious as to things a noob should know about when that is the case in a vintage shotgun....

Decrease "value" since it is out of stamp?

Additional risks/considerations in ammo selection?

Any unforeseen happy out comes, assuming I only shoot shells with appropriate pressures?

I had my suspicions, and am thinking/hopeful the number of different shotshells I need on hand has been simplified.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:26 pm 
Diamond Grade
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:35 pm
Posts: 1330
Location: AZ but dreaming of KS
Please be sure the gunsmith carefully measures wall thickness at the end of the chambers and at the forcing cones
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZIo ... c-kGA/edit

_________________
http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl ... m/www/home

Richard Baxter (1615-1691), Directions Against Covetousness
"Be more careful to use what you have, than to get more."

Kingsley Brown "Shoot more, shop less."


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2018 11:03 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:11 am
Posts: 242
Location: Western Tampa, FL
Very good advice to follow from D. Hause!
After checking everything out it is comforting to know, that most (but obviously not all) 2.5 chambered guns in good condition, can be safely lengthened to 2.75 inch chambers. Those 2.5 inch shells you bought should be fine after that initial professional determination. Personally, I would probably stick with those type of loads. Your gun also has a bolt on the barrel extension which really adds to the action's strength and should keep it from developing head space issues for much longer.
IMO, the original 2 inch chambered guns are not suitable for lengthening due to they being made extremely light weight and therefore thinner barrels. In addition, the fact you are extending the chamber a full 5/8 inch minimum not 1/8 to 1/4 inch is a huge factor.
My research has found that the Belgium steels used in their quality guns were as good as any produced of that era and many English makers of recognizable names used that country's steel barrels.
I love the fancy scalloped back and carved fences as well as the full coverage engraving and gold inlaid "S" in the safety. The fact that colors remaining are consistent and that the screw heads are not buggered at all, shows that it has been cared for properly and not messed with much, if any. All are indicative of a well above average quality gun. Enjoy it!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: A. Fergeron , Liege Belgique
PostPosted: Sun May 20, 2018 2:39 am 
Utility Grade

Joined: Thu May 10, 2018 12:16 pm
Posts: 7
Drew and Oyeme,

Thank you for the additional input. The reputation of the gunsmith is appropriate to the task. His work includes chamber and forcing cone lengthening, custom fabrication, etc. I will be certain the assessment includes determination on thicknesses and will anticipate shooting a lighter load.

RST has a 2.5" bismuth load that is likely worth the additional cost to have two field hunts a year with. I have two locations that make for a decent duck stand/pass and pheasant access is within reach.

This does painfully call to my attention I am currently without a dog.... and planning trips before the viability prognosis is complete is folly... but the Forgeron came to me by whimsy, so I'll keep rolling with it.

The gun is tight. And the thing I notice with it most is when i pick it up how it just feels *confident*. Such a different feeling than my modern O/Us and Semi-Autos. The best analogy I can think of is the attitude difference between the Old Bull and the Young Bull standing on the hill looking over the cows: The Young Bull says, "hey, let's run down there and mate us a cow...."; The Old Bull says, ".... let's walk down and mate them all...."

The 'smith said about 1.5 weeks.... thinking it's going to be a long wait.




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: adjulian, Anatidae, Bing [Bot], birdshooter, Bladeswitcher, BOliver, casonet, chairman, Chitownhoff, Chris Ferres, clayaddiction, Clayhater, DenverDuck, dickgtax, Dmc57, EdSy, Eriehunter, Fountain, Galaxy Flyer, Gigglenshnizer, Google [Bot], Google Feedfetcher, High Rib 52, Jager1, jamese2841, Jiggskid, KRIEGHOFFK80, la angler, LG, marshfield, Mccrow771, mfm22, MPrimo, Mule Driver, nikko12, OldStufferA5#1911, oneounceload, PennSkeet, Pijetro, ppd1107, rat-man, reid, Road Man, Rooster booster, Rudolph31, saskbooknut, Scardog7, scissorhands, strut64, superbeau, taziwac2, The Swanny, Thumper88, victopk, waldo9190, wasthestumper, whackem_stackem, Wmrcobb


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Jump to:  
© 2017 Carbon Media Group Outdoors    - DMCA Notice