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 Post subject: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:10 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:23 pm
Posts: 448
Location: Upper Midwest
I am now shooting a Beretta A400 with Kick Off because of my shoulders. I have lots of experience reloading, but have not loaded light loads for an auto before. I have access to zillions of once fired Rio hulls and want to build a 7/8oz load running about 1250 fps. Figure this a good compromise between low recoil and enough pressure to get a decent burn. I have lots of Clay Dot, but willing to get a different powder. I'll be buying Euro primers to fit these hills. What wads and powder do you recommend? I want something clean burning to keep my auto running. I live 40 minutes from BPI so can get just about anything.
Thanks,
Jeff




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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:37 pm 
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Look on the Hodgdon website. They have a 7/8 oz load for Cheddite hulls using Clays, and a GU1225 wad. Clays is very similar to Clay Dot. I would contact Alliant about subbing Clay Dot in that recipe.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2013 11:01 am
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Location: Newton Kansas
As a gas gun, what you need to do is create enough gas PORT PRESSURE to drive the gun.

This depends entirely on the powder under that payload and how much of it you use.

Real fast powders may very well NOT drive the gun because as little of them as get used they may not give enough port pressure.

Slower powders can make enough port pressure without excessive chamber pressure, but guess what, they will drive your velocity up.
When your velocity goes up, your recoil goes up.

As a last point, if you want "clean" you want less of faster-burning powders AND you want to run them at maximum chamber pressures, above 9ksi and IMO preferably above 10ksi.
More slower powder equals more powder residue.
Lower burn pressure equals more powder residue.

I do not run a 7/8 in a gas gun and I certainly do not run any 'slow' 7/8.
The only 7/8 I run leaves my Auto-5 at 1400fps-ish courtesy of 22.5gr of International in a Rem. Unibody hull. AA12SL wad.
While this load cycles my Auto-5 set "light", it won't drive my inertial Housebroom, but does drive my gas-boosted inertial Huglu.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sat May 12, 2018 10:49 pm 
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I have been using Titewad in my light loads, including 3/4 oz, and they cycle my 1100 and SX1. I use Remington hulls and CB wads.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 12:00 am 
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Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Posts: 124
BPI puts out a load book for the Rio hulls.
of course they use their wads and not the normal ones we can buy at our local stores,
but they do use regular every day powders.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 7:04 am 
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Location: Virginia
Any SW hull
Fiocchi primer
17 gr Vectan A24 (Highly recommended)
Gualandi EML (1227) wad
7/8 oz hard shot

Crimps beautifully, runs about 1240 fps, and cycles my 391 just fine. The Rio primer works great too unless you have piercing problems in an O/U, which I did.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:21 am 
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oregunner wrote:
I have been using Titewad in my light loads, including 3/4 oz, and they cycle my 1100 and SX1. I use Remington hulls and CB wads.


I use the same load for my Beretta A400s; run great.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 9:25 am 
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From what I’ve seen and understand the A400 does a great job operating light target loads. I have a feeling your going to be fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:02 am 
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Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2012 3:28 pm
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Mokeman has your answer

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=230424&hilit=cheddite


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
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rcleofly wrote:
From what I’ve seen and understand the A400 does a great job operating light target loads. I have a feeling your going to be fine.


I shot a friends A400 (3-1/2" chamber) using my light 7/8 oz loads. Cycled fine. Don't specifically remember which load that was. May have been Red Dot, Clay Dot, Titewad or Extra Lite. All similar offerings. In any case, it surprised me that a 3-1/2" chambered gun would function with that loading. Doubt you'll have an issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 2:33 pm 
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I have a Remington Versa Max. You can’t find a load that won’t cycle that gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 5:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:45 am
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Location: Utah
Here is the link to BPI RIO HULL data per file.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ballisticproducts.com/riodata.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjnoeyy2YPbAhUrxoMKHdxDAyAQFjABegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw0WXX5m7CDSYjxrzaYP14JW

VP05 pdf file.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ballisticproducts.com/VP05data.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiwmdiS3IPbAhUp7YMKHfAjDgMQFjAAegQIBxAB&usg=AOvVaw1vab0flZ7rhLIFYOhh8_6_

You can use the new Noble Sport GTT3 wad. BPI has the load data link on the wad information. Also, there is AS24 load data.
Ten.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 8:51 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:23 pm
Posts: 448
Location: Upper Midwest
Thanks for all the responses. Seems like there are lots of options.
ShowMe, what exactly was the answer from Mokeman/Republican? That thread is mostly about getting loads to work in Benelli autos. He did give a recipe using EML wads and 20 grains of Clays, but that’s faster than I want. Seems like there are at least 4 wads from BPI that should work - the EML, Super Spark, Rex 24 and the TP1205. A friend gave me some CB6100 wads and Rio Primers today. I think I’ll start at 18 grains of Clays and go from there.
Regards,
Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2018 11:33 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 09, 2007 5:35 pm
Posts: 3179
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada
I have ran a lot of 7/8 ounce at 1200 - 1250 with
various powders, promo, red dot, clays, tite group,
titewad. They all worked in my autos. You should
be able to find a load pretty easy just checking the loading
sites. One thing to consider, A load of 1 ounce at
1200 fps probably won't recoil any harder than 7/8 at 1250.
In the the 12 ga target load area, 1/8 th ounce of shot
works out to be about the same recoil factor as 50 fps.

If you have a chronograph to check the velocity, you
can probably get a really clean burning load of titegroup
using something in the range of 17 - 17.5 with both
7/8 ounce or 1 ounce loads. These should run in the
area of about 1200 fps. Velocity won't vary much
between the two, but the 7/8 will have a little less pressure.

If you don't have a chronograph, and have to use loading
data, I would go with promo, that way you can use data
for promo or red dot, and you should be able to find what
you want.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 1:51 am 
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Joined: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:21 am
Posts: 93
Location: San Antonio Texas
I've loaded 7/8oz loads in Rio hulls using the CB6100 wads, W209 primers and 17.0 to 17.5gr of Red Dot in my Rem 1100. This load has been 100% reliable thus far, but YMMV.

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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2018 10:31 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:23 pm
Posts: 448
Location: Upper Midwest
When I have shot 1225-1250 fps 7/8 loads in my auto it seems to recoil noticeably less than my 1210 1 oz loads. I use this recoil calculator.
http://www.omahamarian.org/trap/shotshe ... ws&src=syn

I just put in an 8 pound gun and the same wad and powder charges the program recommends.

Shot 7/8 1oz.

1100. 11.6 14.4
1150. 12.6. 15.5
1200. 13.5. 16.7
1250. 14.5. 17.9
1300. 15.5. 19.2

Velocity is in fps and recoil energy is foot pounds. So, the difference between 7/8 and 1 oz is about a 24% increase in recoil at a given velocity. For a given weight of shot increasing velocity by 50fps gives you about a 7% increase in recoil. In this case a 7/8oz load at 1250fps has about the same recoil as an 1100fps 1oz load. For those who enjoy Win Super Sports, their 1 1/8 oz load at 1300fps has 23.3 fp of recoil energy which is 61% more recoil than my goal of 7/8oz at 1250 fps. Here’s to slower, lighter loads!
I’ve never shot super fast heavy loads, but apparently hundreds of thousands of moderate loads along with pulling the lever on reloaders to build those loads has damaged my shoulders. Light loads in my auto let me shoot, so that’s where I’m at.
Regards,
Jeff


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:20 pm 
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Joined: Sun Mar 20, 2016 6:27 pm
Posts: 227
Thank JNW, I just learned something.


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 Post subject: Re: Straight wall 12 ga 7/8 oz load for auto
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:28 am
Posts: 906
JNW has this info in his post above, I just felt like checking the loads/gun I use and might as well post them here:
12ga Browning Cynergy, 7.5 lbs. These just happen to be my reloads with 6 shot chrono speeds, probably close for other guys somewhere.

3/4oz @ 1250 13.4 ft-lbs
3/4oz @ 1280 13.9 ft-lbs
7/8oz @ 1150 14.6 ft-lbs
7/8oz @ 1236 16.5 ft-lbs
7/8oz @ 1275 17.4 ft-lbs
1oz @ 1150 17.9 ft-lbs
9/8oz @ 1150 21.5 ft-lbs Rem GC low recoil loads

For me, with several semi-auto guns I stay 1150-1300 on speeds as I've had several 1100 fps loads that didn't reliably cycle. And commercial loads LR are available at 1150, but I don't think at 1100. What this shows for me, is that between 1150 and 1280 fps, the lower payloads will have less recoil always, but not by very much. If I jump up 1/8oz, and drop to 1150, it will be just a wee bit more recoil than the lighter 1280 fps payload.

By the way, I wasn't targeting 1280ish speeds, just what my reloads gave with Fed209A vs. Ch209 primers, usually a 30 fps or so increase.




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