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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:00 am 
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If I end posting twice, it's because my first post got bugged......

From an armchair standpoint: The synthetic model gas chambers would have an advantage in just changing the chamber spring to affect the cycling of the bolt and recoil. Weaker spring for lighter loads, stronger spring for magnums. In some respect, it could operate at a wider range. The disadvantage would be the number of parts = 5.

The walnut model tubes could change its length to operate certain loads. Longer tube or bigger diameter tubes for magnum loads and smaller tubes for lighter loads. The tube lengths and diameter would give it a smaller operating range. However, the advantage is less parts involved = 1.

Given the current state of Remington, it is probably easier to find custom made spring than custom made tubes. If Remington had to choose one system, I would think the walnut tubes would win by cost and simplicity. For diehard reloaders, they might like the synthetic model.

Both models will vent out gas in 3 locations irregardless of loads used due to the locations cannot be 100% sealed (Piston Rods, Side Ports, and Chamber/Tube ends). In some respect, it does make the expansion chambers less efficient.

Looking at users' experience of their post on this forum, it's possible the gas chamber is slightly better at managing felt recoil for magnum loads at a cost of a little more recoil on target loads. The walnut model has less felt recoil on target loads (long skinny tubes), but a little more felt recoil on magnum loads. I guess Randy would be the best person to test this assumption out on a Youtube video since he has several V3s.

Frankly, the tube and expansion chamber location seems fairly small in volume. I would guess the difference in recoil and bolt operation is really negligible.




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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 9:24 am 
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The exhaust tube system has more consistent bolt speed from 7/8 oz. loads on up. It is a better system for several reasons, not just the more consistent bolt speed and ejection. The spring gas bleed plugs are non-starters on walnut models, they break walnut forearms with authority.

As the tubes exhaust substantially farther downstream, not only is the forearm stress eliminated, the magazine tube stays cleaner, there is no potential for blowback (that I have never had, but others have reported).

It only makes sense to have one gas exhaust system and not only is the exhaust tube system more consistent across the spectrum, it is cleaner, works with any forearm material, and eliminates any blowback potential. That's four distinct advantages.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:16 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
The exhaust tube system has more consistent bolt speed from 7/8 oz. loads on up. It is a better system for several reasons, not just the more consistent bolt speed and ejection. The spring gas bleed plugs are non-starters on walnut models, they break walnut forearms with authority.

As the tubes exhaust substantially farther downstream, not only is the forearm stress eliminated, the magazine tube stays cleaner, there is no potential for blowback (that I have never had, but others have reported).

It only makes sense to have one gas exhaust system and not only is the exhaust tube system more consistent across the spectrum, it is cleaner, works with any forearm material, and eliminates any blowback potential. That's four distinct advantages.

Have you questioned Remington on this seeing your relationship? Why wouldn’t they just start making them all the same as the walnut version? It would be nice to pus some walnut stocks on and use the synthetic when I go for waterfowl

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:19 am 
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kuffs06 wrote:
Have you questioned Remington on this seeing your relationship? Why wouldn’t they just start making them all the same as the walnut version? It would be nice to pus some walnut stocks on and use the synthetic when I go for waterfowl


They know it, they discovered it long ago, they developed it.

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All of this stuff takes significant resources and there is a balance, somewhere, between what engineering and product managers would like to see, and what actually is approved from upper management. The Chapter 11 in and out naturally put a lot of things into turmoil in all of the product segments, and that is something that engineering, R & D, and product managers had no role in, nor did the talent on the production side.


I already answered the why.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 10:30 am 
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Then why wouldn’t they just make them all like the walnut version? Isn’t It only a matter of screwing in the different compensation valves

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:10 am 
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kuffs06 wrote:
Then why wouldn’t they just make them all like the walnut version? Isn’t It only a matter of screwing in the different compensation valves


No, the exhaust tube array does not fit the current synthetic forearms. Redesigned synthetic forearms are required: new tooling, new production, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:12 am 
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FLZ_Boy wrote:
Both models will vent out gas in 3 locations irregardless of loads used due to the locations cannot be 100% sealed (Piston Rods, Side Ports, and Chamber/Tube ends). In some respect, it does make the expansion chambers less efficient.


Not true. The V3 Walnut model has no side vent (port)...only the uncompensated open pipes which extend to the barrel ring do the venting.

If the Versaport system as originally designed has an achilles heel...it's 2.75" "magnum" shells. Why? Because you have ALL chamber ports open to magnum pressures...over-gassing the system...generating extremely high bolt speeds causing jams, functionality issues and wear and tear on the rear of the receiver. This has been an issue with the Versa Max from day 1...and an issue with which I have personal experience.

By his previous statement...Randy would have everyone believe that a passive uncompensated open pipe is more effective at addressing this issue (over-gassing) than the spring-loaded active valves which release excess pressure...which Remington designed (1st) for the V3. Not only does that defy physics...it defies common sense.

You have to ask yourself why did Remington even develop the compensating plugs for the V3 in the 1st place if there wasn't a problem with a single vent only design? Recall...on the V3 the compensating plugs came 1st. When the 1st setup of side vents and compensating plugs of the standard V3 Versaport design began breaking walnut forends...Remington compromised and simply removed the side vent and attached pipes where the compensating plugs once were to vent the gas to the end of the forend.

I'll ask again Randy...how do a couple of open pipes do a better job of regulating pressure in the Versaport system than the spring-loaded valves when using 2.75" magnum shells? Why did Remington even bother to develop compensating valves for the V3 is there wasn't an issue to address and they weren't superior to an open vent? I get standardizing...but not at the cost of performance and versatility.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:01 pm 
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hkg3k wrote:
FLZ_Boy wrote:
Both models will vent out gas in 3 locations irregardless of loads used due to the locations cannot be 100% sealed (Piston Rods, Side Ports, and Chamber/Tube ends). In some respect, it does make the expansion chambers less efficient.


Not true. The V3 Walnut model has no side vent (port)...only the uncompensated open pipes which extend to the barrel ring do the venting.

If the Versaport system as originally designed has an achilles heel...it's 2.75" "magnum" shells. Why? Because you have ALL chamber ports open to magnum pressures...over-gassing the system...generating extremely high bolt speeds causing jams, functionality issues and wear and tear on the rear of the receiver. This has been an issue with the Versa Max from day 1...and an issue with which I have personal experience.

By his previous statement...Randy would have everyone believe that a passive uncompensated open pipe is more effective at addressing this issue (over-gassing) than the spring-loaded active valves which release excess pressure...which Remington designed (1st) for the V3. Not only does that defy physics...it defies common sense.

You have to ask yourself why did Remington even develop the compensating plugs for the V3 in the 1st place if there wasn't a problem with a single vent only design? Recall...on the V3 the compensating plugs came 1st. When the 1st setup of side vents and compensating plugs of the standard V3 Versaport design began breaking walnut forends...Remington compromised and simply removed the side vent and attached pipes where the compensating plugs once were to vent the gas to the end of the forend.

I'll ask again Randy...how do a couple of open pipes do a better job of regulating pressure in the Versaport system than the spring-loaded valves when using 2.75" magnum shells? Why did Remington even bother to develop compensating valves for the V3 is there wasn't an issue to address and they weren't superior to an open vent? I get standardizing...but not at the cost of performance and versatility.


Wonder if there`s a REMINGTON ENGINEER on this site and that`s following this thread that would be free to comment?


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:23 pm 
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Good to know the walnut version has no side ports, it would eleminate the gas blowback to the face.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 4:16 pm 
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This is an example of looking for problems that don't exist.

Image

Just where are the gas bleeds on the 8-1/2 lb. $2199 Benelli M4? Not only that, there is no Versa-Port system.

Image

Getting all cranked up on the term "gas compensating plugs" is a waste of time. They are hardly compensating plugs, they are simple secondary gas bleeds. A secondary gas bleed with a spring is hardly remarkable, if you are familiar with the Beretta 390 and countless other shotguns. Any secondary exhaust is hardly mandatory at all: see the Beretta 302 / 303 / Browning B-80. Or, the Remington 1100 for that matter.

On the V3, it has only two positions, open and closed, and that is hardly compensation, nor does it need to be-- it acts as a simple pop-off valve. It works fine, but it does not work just fine with a walnut fore arm which was the primary motivation for the exhaust tubes.

As it happens, the exhaust tubes work better . . . they are more linear, more consistent, they keep the magazine tube cleaner, and move most of the exhaust down stream well away from the shooter, all the way to the barrel ring.

Image

They are also easier to remove and replace, and easier to tune by varying the inside diameters and lengths of the tubes. There is no spring fatigue, spring wear, or spring breakage so much as possible, for there are no springs.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 7:21 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
This is an example of looking for problems that don't exist.


ONE MORE TIME...can you say 2.75" magnum? It is a problem in the un-compensated Versaport system. That you have no experience with and/or refuse to recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Getting all cranked up on the term "gas compensating plugs" is a waste of time.


Benelli didn't think so in placing them on the ARGO system on the M4 (thanks for the pic illustrating that, btw) and neither did Remington for that matter...recognizing the weakness of the Versa Max, Remington placed them on the V3 as an improvement...utilizing another feature of the ARGO system.

RandyWakeman wrote:
They are hardly compensating plugs, they are simple secondary gas bleeds.


Nonsense and this statement demonstrates you have little to no understanding of what's "going on under the hood." The compensation plugs work upstream of the vent...reducing pressure and the energy imparted into the pistons BEFORE the pistons uncover the vent and reach their stops. At the point in time the piston uncovers the vent to dump residual gas...the pistons have already been "energized" and dumped their energy into the bolt. That's how short stroke gas piston systems work...on many different platforms in addition to these.

Yes, they do compensate...and they do open with puny Gun Clubs and WalMart promotional shells. FACT.

RandyWakeman wrote:
A secondary gas bleed with a spring is hardly remarkable,


Calling the compensation plugs "secondary" when they operate before the vent (or not at all) is remarkable IMO...remarkably misunderstanding how the system works.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Any secondary exhaust is hardly mandatory at all: see the Beretta 302 / 303 / Browning B-80. Or, the Remington 1100 for that matter.


You forgot the 11-87...a primary bleed off is mandatory for guns so designed if you don't want your gun over-gassed, over-cycled, over-stressed and beat to death by its own hand.

RandyWakeman wrote:
As it happens, the exhaust tubes work better . . . they are more linear, more consistent


Data/proof to support these suppositions please.

RandyWakeman wrote:
easier to tune by varying the inside diameters and lengths of the tubes.


There is no tuning...the pipes are just an extension of the vent...just a pathway to dump residual gas. Alter the length or diameter of the pipe and it will still have no effect of what happens inside the Versaport cylinder...because by the time gas reaches the vent/pipe, everything that is gonna happen in the cylinder has already happened.

RandyWakeman wrote:
it acts as a simple pop-off valve..


Correct!!! Just like the wastegate on a turbo-charged vehicle regulates and prevents an overpressure in the intake system...the compensation plugs do the same thing for the Versaport cylinder. Overpressure which comes with use of high-performance and 2.75" magnum shells where all the chamber ports are exposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:03 pm 
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hkg3k wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
This is an example of looking for problems that don't exist.


ONE MORE TIME...can you say 2.75" magnum? It is a problem in the un-compensated Versaport system. That you have no experience with and/or refuse to recognize it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Getting all cranked up on the term "gas compensating plugs" is a waste of time.


Benelli didn't think so in placing them on the ARGO system on the M4 (thanks for the pic illustrating that, btw) and neither did Remington for that matter...recognizing the weakness of the Versa Max, Remington placed them on the V3 as an improvement...utilizing another feature of the ARGO system.

RandyWakeman wrote:
They are hardly compensating plugs, they are simple secondary gas bleeds.


Nonsense and this statement demonstrates you have little to no understanding of what's "going on under the hood." The compensation plugs work upstream of the vent...reducing pressure and the energy imparted into the pistons BEFORE the pistons uncover the vent and reach their stops. At the point in time the piston uncovers the vent to dump residual gas...the pistons have already been "energized" and dumped their energy into the bolt. That's how short stroke gas piston systems work...on many different platforms in addition to these.

Yes, they do compensate...and they do open with puny Gun Clubs and WalMart promotional shells. FACT.

RandyWakeman wrote:
A secondary gas bleed with a spring is hardly remarkable,


Calling the compensation plugs "secondary" when they operate before the vent (or not at all) is remarkable IMO...remarkably misunderstanding how the system works.

RandyWakeman wrote:
Any secondary exhaust is hardly mandatory at all: see the Beretta 302 / 303 / Browning B-80. Or, the Remington 1100 for that matter.


You forgot the 11-87...a primary bleed off is mandatory for guns so designed if you don't want your gun over-gassed, over-cycled, over-stressed and beat to death by its own hand.

RandyWakeman wrote:
As it happens, the exhaust tubes work better . . . they are more linear, more consistent


Data/proof to support these suppositions please.

RandyWakeman wrote:
easier to tune by varying the inside diameters and lengths of the tubes.


There is no tuning...the pipes are just an extension of the vent...just a pathway to dump residual gas. Alter the length or diameter of the pipe and it will still have no effect of what happens inside the Versaport cylinder...because by the time gas reaches the vent/pipe, everything that is gonna happen in the cylinder has already happened.

RandyWakeman wrote:
it acts as a simple pop-off valve..


Correct!!! Just like the wastegate on a turbo-charged vehicle regulates and prevents an overpressure in the intake system...the compensation plugs do the same thing for the Versaport cylinder. Overpressure which comes with use of high-performance and 2.75" magnum shells where all the chamber ports are exposed.


Sooo.... for us simpletons, are you asserting that the walnut V3 cannot/ should not shoot 2 3/4 " magnum shells because it doesn`t have the gas system to support them?? Just trying to get to the nitty gritty as a V3 walnut owner myself.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:35 pm 
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Tidefanatic wrote:
Sooo.... for us simpletons, are you asserting that the walnut V3 cannot/ should not shoot 2 3/4 " magnum shells because it doesn`t have the gas system to support them?? Just trying to get to the nitty gritty as a V3 walnut owner myself.


My experience is this...besides the (3) Field Sport Synthetic V3's I own, I also have a couple of VMs. Like the Walnut V3, the VM does not have a compensated Versaport system. With 2.75" magnums like the Prairie Storms, Golden Pheasant GPXs and Kent Fast-Leads...the VM gets over-gassed and over-cycles...causing jams and functionality issues. I've done a couple things to the VM to mediate with moderate success this issue as I've outlined in this thread:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=436395&p=3816502#p3816502

My limited experience with a Walnut V3 came last fall when one of my buddies brought his new Walnut V3 to our annual pheasant hunt. We were all using Fiocchi Golden Pheasant GPXs. When i shot his gun (with the Fiocchis) I was struck by how hard his gun recoiled vs my VM using the same shells...at the time, I wasn't aware the Walnut model had a different gas system from the standard V3.

Would I personally run 2.75" magnums if i had a Walnut V? No...not until I had made similar modifications to those I've made to my VM to moderate bolt speed and over-cycling...lest you wind up with similar damage that I have in the rear of my VM receiver...a couple of sizable patches of finish knocked out and some peening.

I hope that helps.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:47 am 
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hkg3k wrote:
Tidefanatic wrote:
Sooo.... for us simpletons, are you asserting that the walnut V3 cannot/ should not shoot 2 3/4 " magnum shells because it doesn`t have the gas system to support them?? Just trying to get to the nitty gritty as a V3 walnut owner myself.


My experience is this...besides the (3) Field Sport Synthetic V3's I own, I also have a couple of VMs. Like the Walnut V3, the VM does not have a compensated Versaport system. With 2.75" magnums like the Prairie Storms, Golden Pheasant GPXs and Kent Fast-Leads...the VM gets over-gassed and over-cycles...causing jams and functionality issues. I've done a couple things to the VM to mediate with moderate success this issue as I've outlined in this thread:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=436395&p=3816502#p3816502

My limited experience with a Walnut V3 came last fall when one of my buddies brought his new Walnut V3 to our annual pheasant hunt. We were all using Fiocchi Golden Pheasant GPXs. When i shot his gun (with the Fiocchis) I was struck by how hard his gun recoiled vs my VM using the same shells...at the time, I wasn't aware the Walnut model had a different gas system from the standard V3.

Would I personally run 2.75" magnums if i had a Walnut V? No...not until I had made similar modifications to those I've made to my VM to moderate bolt speed and over-cycling...lest you wind up with similar damage that I have in the rear of my VM receiver...a couple of sizable patches of finish knocked out and some peening.

I hope that helps.


Interesting. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:02 am 
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Hjg3k, you have an internal understanding of the V3 that is incredible...thanks for the great info..I do have a couple of questions I will PM you on....


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 10:20 am 
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hkg3k wrote:
RandyWakeman wrote:
They are hardly compensating plugs, they are simple secondary gas bleeds.


Nonsense and this statement demonstrates you have little to no understanding of what's "going on under the hood." The compensation plugs work upstream of the vent...reducing pressure and the energy imparted into the pistons BEFORE the pistons uncover the vent and reach their stops.


The primary gas bleeds are the eight holes in the chamber, obviously, where either 8 or 4 are used. The V3 walnut has been shipping in quantity for over 1-1/2 years. There are no problems with any 2-3/4 inch or 3 inch loads that anyone has so much as hinted about in all this time.

It is called looking for a non-existent problem for no reason and no potential benefit to anyone. It is a better system for the reasons already stated: As it happens, the exhaust tubes work better . . . they are more linear, more consistent, they keep the magazine tube cleaner, and move most of the exhaust down stream well away from the shooter, all the way to the barrel ring. They are also easier to remove and replace, and easier to tune by varying the inside diameters and lengths of the tubes. There is no spring fatigue, spring wear, or spring breakage so much as possible, for there are no springs.

Standardization makes good sense, and it is also obvious that you would use the better, cleaner, more versatile system to standardize on.

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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:51 pm 
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The wood furniture V3 that a friend owned (after I sold it to him) cracked/split the forearm in multiple places at <250 rounds through it.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 1:56 pm 
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mea culpa wrote:
The wood furniture V3 that a friend owned (after I sold it to him) cracked/split the forearm in multiple places at <250 rounds through it.


And........please enlighten us with what your point might be regarding this unfortunate occurrence.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:11 pm 
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That wood forearm(s) break.

…"When the 1st setup of side vents and compensating plugs of the standard V3 Versaport design began breaking walnut forends...Remington compromised and simply removed the side vent and attached pipes where the compensating plugs once were to vent the gas to the end of the forend."...
(quote from hkg3k's post of yesterday @11:18 HRS)



https://www.shotgunworld.com/shotguns/gu ... -auto.html

Interesting article from the sister website.


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 Post subject: Re: Remington V3 review shot beside a Benelli Super Vinci
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:42 pm 
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fblainen11 wrote:
Feel free to post any comments, questions, concerns, or critiques.
Below is my review of my new Remington V3 and a brief comparison to a Benelli Super Vinci:

Going into this shoot I did not let my brother know about this so he’d have no preconceived notions of what to expect. I only made sure we both had glasses on. After his first shot he immediately said “Smells like gunpowder!” He noticed it for sure, but it wasn’t bad enough to deter him from continuing to shoot which was my takeaway….not really that bad, but it’d be nice if it weren’t there.

Ergonomics: Altogether the gun feels great in my hand. From the left side the gun looks very similar to an 870. The forend is neither slim nor bulky, and I had no issues with getting a comfortable grip. I wear an XL glove size. The trigger felt great with no issues of which to speak. The safety is in a great spot.

While the Vinci could not be classified as harsh (especially with 2 ¾ ) you could feel it shifting your body enough to make the follow-up shot a little more difficult. Big win for the V3 here in my opinion. Remington nailed it here!
Fit and Finish: The gun is built well. The finish is good. Everything lines up. The barrel doesn’t wiggle. The forend doesn’t wiggle around. It is a solid, well-built gun. I plan on getting the barrel cerakoted, so I won’t be able to comment on how it will hold up. I intend to use it for duck hunting in brackish marsh.

Reliability: The gun performed flawlessly. I’ve not seen any reports of the V3 having reliability problems. I have nothing to report here except the gun has gone bang every time I’ve asked it to. No cycling problems to speak of. My brother was impressed with the reliability and ability to shoot the low brass 2 ¾ with no issues. My father was a bit jealous because he has issues during dove season with his A5 shooting low brass.
Disassembly: I can only comment on what I’ve taken apart so far. The gun field strips easily and goes back together easily. When putting the bolt back in, be sure not to press on the bolt face, but the bolt carrier only. Push it in even with the end of the receiver to make sure it lines up correctly for the bolt handle. The recoil springs are in the receiver and do not extend into the stock. This is great because you can use the available shims to get a great line of sight!!(okay that was crossed through in my word doc, but the format did not translate over and I can't figure out how to do that on my phone.) A great design by Remington that makes keeping all operating/moving parts cleaned and lubed a breeze. The bolt is easy to disassemble. I was able to take it apart and put back together with no tools. Makes cleaning very easy. A side note, I just started using frog lube and man that stuff is awesome!
On a scale of 1-10 I’d say this gun gets an 8.5. Yes I’m knocking it for not having shims and yes I’m knocking it for the gas blowing back in my face.

8.5/10 Would buy again.


This is the "I Love My Remington Shotgun" forum, although you sure wouldn't know it by the off-topic, random comments.

It isn't tough at all to actually read the review, and comment. It is obvious that the only significant 'objections' by the owner are 1) lack of shims and 2) unwanted gas.

Unwanted gas is never a problem with the walnut model: the exhaust tubes completely fix that and that leaves shims. Add shims to all models of the V3, add the exhaust tubes to the synthetic models and done . . . there isn't anything left to address.



BassPro (one example) sells the camo SuperVinci for $1,729.99. For that, you can buy (at least) two Remington V3's, walnut or camo, and still have a nice little bag of cash left over.



_________________
--Randy

http://randywakeman.com


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