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 Post subject: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 2:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
I see one of those #5 engraved Pigeon Grade Model 12s, "Never touched by any engraver who worked at the Winchester factory" sold yesterday. The price was very attractive and I hope someone on this forum lucked into it. By attractive price, I mean about four grand or more below its true value. However, I was not going to be fooled, and let it go to another bidder.




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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:06 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
So I guess you are saying that you weren't fooled but you hope someone on the forum was?

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:34 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:26 pm
Posts: 118
8,411 posts! Are you kidding me?

I will take the bait... What kind of provenance, documentation, or history accompanied the gun?

:roll:


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 Post subject: Duplicate message deleted
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:34 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:26 pm
Posts: 118
Duplicate message deleted


Last edited by Super Exstasy on Wed May 30, 2018 7:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue May 29, 2018 5:55 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
lowgun wrote:
I see one of those #5 engraved Pigeon Grade Model 12s, "Never touched by any engraver who worked at the Winchester factory" sold yesterday. The price was very attractive and I hope someone on this forum lucked into it. By attractive price, I mean about four grand or more below its true value. However, I was not going to be fooled, and let it go to another bidder.


Good move, too bad it wasn't the real deal. The other one the same seller had is engraved in a 12-1B with A Carved wood by an in house Custom shop engraver and went for 50 cents on the dollar, that one I am told has been acquired by an advanced collector.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:04 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
Gunboy, I remember giving you advice that helped you purchase a Super Pigeon for very short money when I could have bought it. I am confused why you did not purchase this one. Can you explain why the other gun was not "the real deal"?


Last edited by lowgun on Wed May 30, 2018 6:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:41 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
No, Pauline, I don't expect anyone else to be fooled. That is absolutely not what I was saying. My wish is for others to get a good deal on a good gun. As gunboy will attest, my goal is to help others, as I have helped him in the past. No one who purchased one of the guns in question was "fooled". They bought guns for thousands of dollars under their true value, regardless of what some "experts" would have stated.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1534
Location: Louisiana
lowgun wrote:
No, Pauline, I don't expect anyone else to be fooled. That is absolutely not what I was saying. My wish is for others to get a good deal on a good gun. As gunboy will attest, my goal is to help others, as I have helped him in the past. No one who purchased one of the guns in question was "fooled". They bought guns for thousands of dollars under their true value, regardless of what some "experts" would have stated.

Of which "experts" do you refer?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:03 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
I am curious about these experts too. If you wanted anyone to get a "good deal" you should have brought up the other gun that guy was selling, at least according to what Gunboy states. If anyone wanted a "good deal" that other gun sounds like it was a real winner. I guess some more knowledgeable collector picked up on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:25 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
lowgun wrote:
Gunboy, I remember giving you advice that helped you purchase a Super Pigeon for very short money when I could have bought it. I am confused why you did not purchase this one. Can you explain why the other gun was not "the real deal"?


As I've stated before, Thank You for the assistance back in 2012 or 2013 with information on that Super Pigeon when I inquired about it.

I did not purchase the recent 12-1B, if it's anyone's business, since we are finally relocating to Georgia after 5 years of attempting to get a civil service position in the DoD there. Additionally, I have located a factory engraved Model 21 VR 12 gauge for short money, but am holding off until we complete our move and home/land purchase.

As I've stated before, the fine gentlemen of Virginia, West Virginia and Ohio who collect Vintage Winchester shotguns and so graciously invited me and took me under their collective vintage Winchester shotgun wings back in 2014 discussed these two guns and determined the #5 engraved gun was NOT engraved by a Winchester employee. I believe the engraved scrolls and scrolling was NOT determined to be the style used by anyone at Winchester. Its kinda neat, since we have a pact in the group. Whomever locates the gun, whether at auction, on-line or FTF gets first crack as the purchaser. I have been fortunate on three occasions and this would have been number four had I not passed and allowed another group member to step up, due to our move and my Model 21 fund.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 9:59 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
Sounds like a great group of knowledgeable and courteous guys you hooked up with. Congrats to you and whomever purchased the gun!

_________________
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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 9:34 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
The Renski engraved gun with Durkin wood will be hanging in my gun room. It does need a little tlc to bring it back to spec. I passed on the other engraved gun because it was not correct.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:36 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2005 11:17 pm
Posts: 600
Location: sw Ill
Very interesting conversation, but without pictures it’s all just talk. [GRINNING FACE WITH SMILING EYES]
Retsehcniw???

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If in doubt, eMpTy the MAGazine!


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 10:48 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
Mtmag...When it arrives I will post pics.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:06 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
Ret, what exactly was wrong with the originality of the other gun? Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 5:45 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
lowgun wrote:
Ret, what exactly was wrong with the originality of the other gun? Thanks.


Nobody knows who the engraver was.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 12:02 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
Obviously, somebody knows who the engraver is, but obviously, you do not. Nobody??


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:37 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
I'd bet the person who engraved it knows who they are! Who do the experts believe the #5 engraving was done by? Seems alot of questions have been asked Lowgun, how about some answers? Or is it cryptic messages, unclear statements, vague assumptions, half answered questions and run away and hide time again?


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:49 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
And the clock ticks for answers to the above questions from four different members...... What provenance? What documentation? What history? What experts (asked twice)? Why didn't you bring up the gun with #5 engraving and post here to "help others" get a good deal on an original gun? Tick tock tick tock.....


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 3:31 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
lowgun wrote:
Obviously, somebody knows who the engraver is, but obviously, you do not. Nobody??


Lowgun, prove me wrong. It was OBVIOUSLY engraved by somebody but I know who it wasn’t done by and that is all that concerns me. Did you know that the other gun was factory engraved and if so why didn’t you post that up here for all your followers to get a good deal on? You stated that the #5 gun wasn’t done by any Winchester engraver, how did you know this? But like I said, prove me wrong and I will gladly eat crow and apologize to the forum for my incorrect statement.




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