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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:07 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
What is this "run and hide" business coming from gunboy? I don't run and hide, I try to create a discussion about a gun and no one seems to be interested in explaining why it is a fake. I really liked the gun and think the fellow who bid $1700 plus on the gun got a deal. I tried but failed to get a picture of the gun to print on my computer. Can anyone get that picture? Most model 12 engraving fakers don't bother to move the choke mark forward like this guy did. Or maybe he didn't have to move the choke mark.




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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:01 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
I don't know about running and hiding but you sure are good at avoiding questions.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:24 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
lowgun wrote:
What is this "run and hide" business coming from gunboy? I don't run and hide, I try to create a discussion about a gun and no one seems to be interested in explaining why it is a fake. I really liked the gun and think the fellow who bid $1700 plus on the gun got a deal. I tried but failed to get a picture of the gun to print on my computer. Can anyone get that picture? Most model 12 engraving fakers don't bother to move the choke mark forward like this guy did. Or maybe he didn't have to move the choke mark.


I answered your question 13 posts prior to this one. We await answers to our questions.

BTW, I don't think $1700 plus shiping and FFL fees is a good deal for a Model 12, 12 gauge trap gun engraved by someone not affiliated with Winchester. If, it was a small bore it would be a different story.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:43 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
According to your original post at the very beginning of this topic, you put the "true value" of this gun at $4000 above what it sold for, which would put the value, according to you, at $5700. I don't know anyone who pays $5700 or even $1700. for a faked up pigeon grade gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:05 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:06 am
Posts: 387
Location: Delmarva Eastern Shore
I don't think we should pass judgment what a forum member pays for a model 12. If he or she pays too much or gets a great deal on investment its their money. Some of us who bought enough model 12's the last decade know on some models are currently selling for much less than we paid for them if you lucky to find a buyer, that's the chance we take.

I know I paid too much for some of the Model 12's, model 70's and Parkers too. I wanted them so bad its only money, can't take neither of them with you to Heaven.


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 Post subject: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:35 am 
*Proud to be a*
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 8228
Location: Kansas
Money can always be replenished. The gun that you really want may only come along once in your lifetime or not at all. On those infrequent occasions where the gun that I really wanted came along, I ponied up and paid for it and didn’t look back. Too much money in some cases, like the like new Colt Python that I paid $150 for in 1969. It was too much at the time and I had to pay for it a little at a time, but in hindsight, it wasn’t such a bad deal. By the way, I still have it.

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


Last edited by casonet on Mon Jun 04, 2018 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:58 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
I agree a gun is only worth to you what you want to pay for it but making statements on an open forum that a gun that is for sale is way under valued by thousands of $$$ and "others" should buy it is not so good. Saying you are doing this to be "helpful" to other collectors because of the knowledge that you have, without realizing the gun is a fake, is not too smart either. It can cause somebody to get a very bad deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 10:17 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
And he's gone again.... maybe tomorrow we'll get a one line response....


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:38 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2007 2:26 pm
Posts: 118
message deleted...


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 6:14 pm 
*Proud to be a*
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Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:54 pm
Posts: 8228
Location: Kansas
Of that group of 5 guns that I recently bought and told you about, I’m convinced that the 28 and the 20 left the factory as legitimate pigeons. The Simmons ribs are very early because they have the donut posts and the ribs are stamped: “Simmons Specialties Patent Pending”. The ribs were left in the white, which I’ve never seen before. Don’t know who installed the Cutts Compensators. The engraving appears to have been done with some sort of scratch pen, also left in the white. It’s very tastefully done, very intricate and in my eye, beautiful, but alas, none of this is factory and they will make lovely shooters, because I don’t have that much in them. What could be finer, a Model 12, 28 ga that I can shoot and enjoy and I don’t have to be careful with it!

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"We pulled the trigger, the safety went forward, both barrels fired almost together, the gun opened, ejectors kicked the fired cases over our shoulder ...the most completely automatic gun we ever fired" Elmer Keith- Shotguns by Keith


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:48 am 
Limited Edition

Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 10:06 am
Posts: 387
Location: Delmarva Eastern Shore
lowgun wrote:
What is this "run and hide" business coming from gunboy? I don't run and hide,


Are you up to your old "tricks" again ..................... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 5:52 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
lowgun wrote:
What is this "run and hide" business coming from gunboy? I don't run and hide, I try to create a discussion about a gun and no one seems to be interested in explaining why it is a fake. I really liked the gun and think the fellow who bid $1700 plus on the gun got a deal. I tried but failed to get a picture of the gun to print on my computer. Can anyone get that picture? Most model 12 engraving fakers don't bother to move the choke mark forward like this guy did. Or maybe he didn't have to move the choke mark.

Well, it's been 36 hours and no responses. Are we taking another six month break? Thought you didn't run and hide? Your knowledge is helpful, we just need answers.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:44 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:06 am
Posts: 152
If I was to bet I'd say that slowgun bought this gun and is now trying to prove that it's factory engraved. This thread started off kinda like the Bing Crosby thread and he owns that gun and it's a $20,000 non factory engraved gun. Both guns were bought from the same seller....Just my opinion and you know what they say about those.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:58 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
I apologize for being away for five days at the Northeast Side by Side shoot, having a good time looking at guns and shooting. I spent the next two days at the North South NSSA shoot. That's my seven day apology, like it's really some of your business. I'm out doing the real thing while you guys are just talking about it. A friend brought a carload of graded Model 12s to this side by side shoot and sold every one of them at collector prices. So much for the dead pump gun market. There are a couple of posters on this forum who should drive a short distance to give me appraisals on some of my engraved guns. They are my friends and fellow collectors and shooters and know who they are. They are two examples of guys who go out and "do it" instead of just talking about it. No need to reply to this post because I am unlikely to read it while it is current. You guys and girls are about the rudest posters on any internet site I frequent.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:35 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2009 4:34 pm
Posts: 1534
Location: Louisiana
Well, if that's not the pot calling the kettle black. Nogun, congratulations. We now know that you are completely full of crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:21 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
Can't do a screen shot from my phone but you found the time and opportunity to post in the Ithaca Forum in the Sousa 2500 Grade thread at 3:42 pm on 5 June 2018 about Parker shotguns but couldn't find the time or have the opportunity to answer questions and post here? I call BS. Besides, still no answers in your latest rant.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:33 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2010 5:07 pm
Posts: 1910
Location: Moore County, NC
Reply with quote lowgun
Post subject: Re: Sousa Double and a $2500 Grade Knick
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:42 pm
Crown Grade
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8434
Location: Maryland

"It looks like Parker collecting is a thing of the past. I can't wait to see my friend Walt up north. Maybe I'll get to meet the Firetower guys also."

Best I could do.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:03 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
Got to agree with you guys. Plenty of big statements but nothing to back them up when anyone asks questions.

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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:59 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 9:56 am
Posts: 8439
Location: Maryland
Give me your questions, I will try to answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Model 12 Pigeon Internet Activity
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:36 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 2:02 pm
Posts: 1327
Location: Ct.
M12Gunboy wrote:
And the clock ticks for answers to the above questions from four different members...... What provenance? What documentation? What history? What experts (asked twice)? Why didn't you bring up the gun with #5 engraving and post here to "help others" get a good deal on an original gun? Tick tock tick tock.....



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