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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 4:55 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 9632
Location: Fairport NY
It all depends on your attitude. For us guys just shooting weekly, I have supreme confidence in both my 20 ga. and my 28 ga. guns, and normally equal or more often beat my squadmates and their 12 bores. BUT... you have to be confident and let it work its magic!



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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2018 9:23 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 221
BobK wrote:
It all depends on your attitude. For us guys just shooting weekly, I have supreme confidence in both my 20 ga. and my 28 ga. guns, and normally equal or more often beat my squadmates and their 12 bores. BUT... you have to be confident and let it work its magic!

We might have to change your user name to “Deadeye”. If you point it in the right place they break. I don’t really feel terribly handicapped until I get the 410. That will definitely challenge folks.

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:12 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 9632
Location: Fairport NY
You're absolutely right, and the .410 is DEFINITELY a challenge. I'm no deadeye. Just lucky pointing the gun. But we all have SOME occasional days shooting when we (or at least I) couldn't hit a clay with an 8 gauge payload! (Fortunately they are few and far between!) It ain't how much lead you put in the air, it's putting it where the clay or bird will be when the shot gets there!

It's tough to remember that we are shooting at an empty piece of the sky or background, and counting on the shot reaching the right distance from us at the same time that the target reaches that same place. If you think about it, you're sure to screw it up!

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 7:35 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 221
I had one of those days this morning. With the 12. Couldn’t have hit a Bull in the “arse” with a bass fiddle.

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:14 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:32 am
Posts: 298
Location: Eastern VA
Joe Hunter wrote:
ef -- Here are some of my pattern numbers, that I've posted before, comparing 20ga and 12ga 1 oz loads and a 20ga 7/8 oz load for comparison. I didn't shoot any patterns with 12ga 1 1/8 oz loads of #8 lead shot, but odds are, they would put more pellets in the pattern than the 12ga 1 oz loads with compariable chokes.

Let’s see what the pattern board can tell us about these questions using my gun/chokes and Winchester AA target loads.

1) Will a 20ga 7/8-ounce load pattern "better" than a 20ga 1-ounce load?

2) Will a 12ga 1-ounce load pattern "better" than a 20ga 1-ounce load?

Patterning results from a 20-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

20 GA 2 3/4" WINCHESTER AA TARGET LOAD
7/8 oz #8 lead (356 pellets) @ 1,200 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 182 (51%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 230 (65%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 257 (72%)
30 YARDS -- M / pattern 318 (89%)

40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 225 (63%)
40 YARDS -- LF / pattern 246 (69%)
40 YARDS -- F / pattern 240 (67%)
40 YARDS -- XF / pattern 259 (73%)

20 GA 2 3/4" WINCHESTER AA HEAVY TARGET LOAD
1 oz #8 lead (410 pellets) @ 1,165 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 216 (53%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 237 (58%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 276 (67%)
30 YARDS -- M / pattern 341 (83%)

40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 270 (66%)
40 YARDS -- LF / pattern 277 (68%)
40 YARDS -- F / pattern 272 (66%)
40 YARDS -- XF / pattern 291 (71%)

As you can see, the 1-ounce load always put more pellets in the pattern than the 7/8-ounce load. And, the 7/8-ounce load usually, but not always, registered higher pattern percentages than the 1-ounce load.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels and Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

Winchester AA Extra-Lite Target Load
1 oz #8 lead (393 pellets) @ 1,180 fps
30 YARDS -- CYL / pattern 218 (55%)
30 YARDS -- SK / pattern 256 (65%)
30 YARDS -- IC / pattern 305 (78%)

40 YARDS -- LM / pattern 251 (64%)
40 YARDS -- M / pattern 292 (74%)
40 YARDS -- IM / pattern 295 (75%)
40 YARDS -- LF / pattern 294 (75%)
40 YARDS -- F / pattern 288 (73%)

As you can see, the 20-gauge has a hard time keeping up with the 12-gauge unless you tighten the degree of choke.

3) Does this make one more “effective” than the other?

I'll let you be the judge of that!

Good luck!


Joe, Thanks for all of the effort that went into collecting this data. It is interesting and informative. One observation regarding the 12 gauge, 40 yard data: the performance of your M, IM, LF and F chokes are indistinguishable. I made the same discovery when I did similar work with Browning chokes. In my case, the SK, IC and LM were the same at 30 yards. I attributed the results to poor choke performance. I am interested in your thoughts ... what do you think caused this? Diddle

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 10:04 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:59 pm
Posts: 221
Not Joe, but I have seen the similar results. I think the main contributor is shot hardness. I think moderate velocity also plays a part. We have very good wads today also. I’ve noticed a trend in my clays gun as well. Whether I shoot light mod or improved mod, I break targets just as far and just as hard with one as I do with the other. I for a long time shot mod and Imod but lately shoot more light mod and mod and am testing the improved cylinder. My Beretta’s are the same way. Along the same lines a friend of mine shoots a Perazzi, shoots cylinder and cylinder, never changes, and it crushes targets at distance, with his 1oz reloads of 7.5s at 1200. He discovered this when he left them in at a shoot by mistake. I know that’s not the norm, but It’s an interesting subject.

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 7:42 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:58 pm
Posts: 1191
Dibble -- Sorry, but I don't "know" what causes pattern variations like the ones you pointed out. It’s safe to say, some loads (depending on load components, gun barrel, and choke geometry) just seem to perform as expected and some don't. This is just another example why you must pattern, IF you really want to know how your barrel/choke/load combo is performing!

And yes, the above 1 oz #8 lead load didn't shoot higher percentages, as would be expected, when the constrictions got tighter, BUT I wouldn't say it was poor performance, just not as expected. I could say, the Mod, IM and LF exceeded industry standards for 40-yard pattern performance and that the full shot normal full performance.

Anyway, here are a few more of my pattern numbers with quality lead target loads that show the gains in pattern percentages from Mod. choke (~.020") to Full choke (~.035") at 40 yards in my gun/chokes.

Patterning results from a 12-gauge Browning Citori with 28" Invector-plus barrels using Briley flush chokes (patterns average of five, 30" post-shot scribed circle, yardage taped muzzle to target, and in-shell pellet count average of five).

40 YARDS / M
Win AA Heavy 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) / pattern 285 (76%)
Rem Premier STS 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (408 pellets) / pattern 293 (72%)
Rem Premier Nitro 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (420 pellets) / pattern 302 (72%)
Average pattern percentage -- 73%

40 YARDS / IM
Win AA Heavy 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) / pattern 288 (76%)
Rem Premier STS 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (408 pellets) / pattern 295 (72%)
Rem Premier Nitro 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (420 pellets) / pattern 307 (73%)
Average pattern percentage -- 74%

40 YARDS / LF
Win AA Heavy 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) / pattern 289 (77%)
Rem Premier STS 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (408 pellets) / pattern 313 (77%)
Rem Premier Nitro 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (420 pellets) / pattern 309 (74%)
Average pattern percentage -- 76%

40 YARDS / F
Win AA Heavy 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (377 pellets) / pattern 299 (79%)
Rem Premier STS 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (408 pellets) / pattern 321 (79%)
Rem Premier Nitro 2 ¾” 1 1/8 oz #7 ½ lead (420 pellets) / pattern 321 (76%)
Average pattern percentage -- 78%

Hope this helps, good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 1:01 am 
Shotgun Expert
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Joined: Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:02 am
Posts: 22414
Location: Plainfield, IL
Diddle wrote:
One observation regarding the 12 gauge, 40 yard data: the performance of your M, IM, LF and F chokes are indistinguishable.


They are hardly indistinguishable if you consider central thickening.

Image

More shot of the same quality means better patterns every time. As a result, the 20 gauge is clearly inferior to the 12 gauge and 1 oz. loads are loudly inferior to 1-1/8 oz. loads.

Image

Brand of choke doesn't mean much, as Neil Winston showed.

Image

Image

Image

To have reliable average pattern data takes at least 10 patterns. Even then, once in a while, the results can be misleading . . . and it takes 20 patterns.

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 Post subject: Re: Is A 20 Gauge A Disadvantage vs. 12 Gauge?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 04, 2018 5:47 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 7:32 am
Posts: 298
Location: Eastern VA
Thanks, Joe and Randy. I appreciate your interesting and informative responses to my somewhat off-topic observation. Again, thanks!



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