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 Post subject: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 12:57 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 10:40 pm
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I'm sure everyone will be delighted with another "what gun?" thread from a day old account, but hear me out.

Preliminaries: I've recently returned to the hobby after 15 years away (ex-wife is a gun hater) and I'm about 5 flats in. I'm enjoying it as much as I remember from my teenage years and I'm thinking it's about time to look into getting something a little nice. I owe myself a divorce present, so I'm looking for a high quality over-under in 12ga for skeet, 5-stand, and sporting clays. Trap isn't really my thing. Budget is $5k although I'm not insistent on spending all of that or I could stretch a bit for the right gun.

So far I've shot my late 90s vintage SKB 585 12ga from when I was a kid and a Browning Citori White Lightning (28ga) and Browning 725 Sport (28ga) both of which I have access to through my brother. Jumping back into the hobby has made me realize there are a ton of possibilities out there in terms of equipment and I'm feeling a bit lost, I was wondering if you guys could help me out in terms of what I should be researching and talking about with a coach as I look for a gun?

I know the most important thing is to get a gun I enjoy shooting and that 95% of success is the person behind the gun and not the gun itself. I also know the gun needs to fit. I've got my first lesson set up soon so the point here is more to get ideas on a gun to discuss than anything else. I plan on trying to lay my hands on and shoot as many guns as possible.

All of that being said, what are the realistic guns I should be looking for around the $5k price point?

The most important factors to me beside fun and fit are

1) Tolerances/Mechanical Quality: I'm not much for fancy wood or high quality engraving. I'd rather the money I'm spending be spent on a quality action and barrels.

2) Resale Value: Seems like when people get the bug they end up with a cabinet, and as I'm just getting back into things I realize my preferences aren't developed yet so it may be that I'll end up wanting to trade/sell for something that suits me better - I'd rather not lose a bucket load of money in the process.

Of all 3 guns I've used so far I've enjoyed and shot better with the 28ga White Lightning than anything else. Felt like it pointed very naturally to me and was "lively".

The guns that have caught my eye so far

1) Blaser F16 Sporting: The price is right and I hear the quality is good. I also like that it has a weighting system/balancer and is available with an adjustable comb - I like that idea because as I can adjust the gun as I develop my skills and preferences.

2) Beretta 692 Sporting: Same plus points as the Blaser (although I'm partial to German engineering even though it might be a bit a stereotype) and it looks like it resembles a field gun more than the Blaser, which might be nice as I enjoyed the Citori White Lightning 28ga more than anything else I've shot so far.

Based on that is there anything else I should be researching/trying to lay my hands on?

If you've made it this far, thanks so much for reading the wall of text!




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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:56 am 
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Caesar Guerini, any of the sporting guns in your price range. Have a look at CG USA on-line
Blaser F 16 sporting

I've had several CGs over the last nine years and currently shoot the Syren. Lovely guns. I got the Blaser F 16 Intuition last November and it is a really nice gun.

Speaking as a woman, gun-hating was your first clue. Mary Ann

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:35 am 
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A used Blaser F3 is also worth looking at (IIRC, new ones are now north of $5K)

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:51 am 
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Location: Montana
In that price range look at a new Zoli Kronos or a used Zoli Z Sport in addition to the previous recommendations.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 10:31 am 
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Location: Lower Hudson Valley, New York
5K range will bring you a second hand Perazzi MX8 / Blaser F3/Zoli Z Sport. Adding a few more rubles, (and with a bit of searching and patience), brings you a earlier K80 or DT 11 at around the 6K range. Enjoy your shopping journey, you're in a good position to walk away with a fine shotgun if you choose wisely............................................

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Beretta DT11 30" Skeet
Beretta SP 1 30" Sport
Browning Ultra XS Sport 30"


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 1:24 pm 
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Fred,

If I were looking for an O/U for less than $5K and didn't want a Browning or Beretta, I would probably select a Caesar Guerini Sporting gun. Personally, I like the old Browning Citoris such as the 525 Sporting or the XT Trap or XS Skeet. They're available on the used market if you look around and at much less than $5K. They'll keep shooting almost forever or at least until long after I'm gone with minimal parts replacement needed. Parts are readily available at inexpensive prices and almost any parts changer can replace most of them easily. A skilled gunsmith might be required for a few things, but that's no big problem.

Enjoy your search and enjoy your shooting. Who needs a wife that hates guns?!!! Good riddance! :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:40 pm 
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Not only is my wife not a gun hater, but she told me a few years back"You've wanted a K80 ever since I can remember, and you've got a birthday coming up. I think I'm going to get you one if that's OK. " Welcome back to the sport and here's hoping you're as lucky next time around!


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 4:57 pm 
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The resale value is always best on a clean used gun. Even if you have to correct a problem or two, which is unlikely, the hit you take on a new gun can be brutal. Look at the Blasers for sale here in the classifieds. Understand the difference between an F3 and an F16. Also look at the K 80 which may be somewhat negotiable and is not that much over your target. Both the K guns and the Blasers take a pretty heavy write down on the used market, which make them good buys for the used buyer. The 692 is a good gun, but most would not rate them with a Blaser or K gun. If you are serious about a 692, look for the very best price available new, then buy used and do not pay over 80% of the new price.
The Guerini guns are excellent buys new, and can be good buys used. I think the used prices have come up in the last year.
On any sporting clays gun, the market will devalue it at least 10% and probably more if it does not have 32" barrels. If you buy a 30" gun, do not overpay.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 8:01 pm 
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Location: Georgetown, TX
If you are scheduled for some lessons try to shoot as many guns during this time as you can. Be sure to shoot crossing targets with these guns. I suggest that you hold back $500 to $800 dollars of your budget to get the gun properly fitted. You won’t believe what a difference a proper fit will make. Good luck in your search for your personal holy grail.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:04 pm 
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rufus wrote:
I suggest that you hold back $500 to $800 dollars of your budget to get the gun properly fitted. You won’t believe what a difference a proper fit will make. Good luck in your search for your personal holy grail.


Dead on! MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2018 9:05 pm 
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Funny... I had a conversation with my wife a number of years ago. If she wanted to become a "gun hater", she, too, could inherit the title "ex-wife" :)

If you value mechanical excellence, the Blaser is a good pick, but be aware the the F16 is light. 692 is also a good bet - have shot those plenty of times and I'm always impressed. I would also consider a good, hard look at Zoli and Guerini - I shoot Zoli now but have owned a few Guerini's. Fit and finish on both are outstanding. Mechanically I prefer Zoli, but it's down to personal preference. Outside of Kolar, Krieghoff, and Perazzi, resale value will likely be disappointing across the board. Zoli has issues here; Guerini is getting better. Even Browning and Berretta get beat up a little if you decide to dump it early on. They key is finding something you love that fits like a glove so that you never WANT to dump it. In reality, everyone in the "upper tier" makes a well machined gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:51 am 
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Thanks so much for all the friendly and helpful replies folks, keep up coming if you have ideas.

I'll add Zolis, CGs, and used F3s and DT11s to my research list and discuss them with my coach, first lesson is tomorrow, hopefully things go well. Comments regarding the F16 being a bit light are duly noted, I've come across that a bit in my research as well. I also appreciate the insights into the resale market as well, it is something totally foreign to me so the concrete figures like 80% of new for a used 692 are of great value. I also note that everyone talks about fit, I definitely plan on making it a priority.

Thanks again!


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:23 am 
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MAJENKINS wrote:
Caesar Guerini, any of the sporting guns in your price range. Have a look at CG USA on-line
Blaser F 16 sporting

I've had several CGs over the last nine years and currently shoot the Syren. Lovely guns. I got the Blaser F 16 Intuition last November and it is a really nice gun.

Speaking as a woman, gun-hating was your first clue. Mary Ann


I’d second MAJ’s suggestion ... check out the Guerini’s. Based on the preferences you mention, I suggest considering the Summit Sporting with adjustable comb. They are quality shotguns with best-in-class quality AND service. I have bought them new and used; there are the obvious advantages to both ... you’ll need to evaluate this based on the deal. One thing worth remembering: if you buy a used Guerini, you will get one free “pit stop”. That will get you a thorough evaluation and mechanical tune-up by a CG gunsmith. Or, you could ask the seller to have a pit stop done as part of the deal and save your pit stop for a check-up later on. That can remove a lot of the risk associated with buying a used shotgun.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 6:38 am 
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I bought two CGs and my K-80 new. If I had it to do over again, I would have bought good low mileage used guns and let someone else take the first BIG depreciation hit and then I would not be so scared to get the first nick (i.e. handling mark) in them.

The CG Pit Stop Program is a big plus.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 8:33 am 
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wasthestumper wrote:
Funny... I had a conversation with my wife a number of years ago. If she wanted to become a "gun hater", she, too, could inherit the title "ex-wife" :)

If you value mechanical excellence, the Blaser is a good pick, but be aware the the F16 is light. 692 is also a good bet - have shot those plenty of times and I'm always impressed. I would also consider a good, hard look at Zoli and Guerini - I shoot Zoli now but have owned a few Guerini's. Fit and finish on both are outstanding. Mechanically I prefer Zoli, but it's down to personal preference. Outside of Kolar, Krieghoff, and Perazzi, resale value will likely be disappointing across the board. Zoli has issues here; Guerini is getting better. Even Browning and Berretta get beat up a little if you decide to dump it early on. They key is finding something you love that fits like a glove so that you never WANT to dump it. In reality, everyone in the "upper tier" makes a well machined gun.


Exactly how much does an F16 Sporting weigh? How much does a CG Summit Sporting weigh? A Zoli Kronos? What qualifies as light?


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 1:53 pm 
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F16 - 6 lbs. 8 oz.
CG Summit - 8 lbs.
Kronos - 8 lbs. 2 oz.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:11 pm 
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rufus wrote:
F16 - 6 lbs. 8 oz.
CG Summit - 8 lbs.
Kronos - 8 lbs. 2 oz.


That is for the F16 field with a 28 inch barrel. Blaser shows the Sporting at 7 lbs 8 oz to 8 lbs 4 oz depending on the barrel length and weights used. I have seen it weighed at a local shop with 32 inch barrels and know that to be true. Some of you fail to actually do the research and then spread bad information. The bottom line is the weight of the Sporting model is in line with the other guns in that price group. If you don't like the gun, fine. You don't need to lie about it.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 2:12 pm 
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If you going to spend 5k I would try as many as possible in your price rang. Would you buy a 5k car without driving it


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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:24 pm 
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drawdc wrote:
rufus wrote:
F16 - 6 lbs. 8 oz.
CG Summit - 8 lbs.
Kronos - 8 lbs. 2 oz.


That is for the F16 field with a 28 inch barrel. Blaser shows the Sporting at 7 lbs 8 oz to 8 lbs 4 oz depending on the barrel length and weights used. I have seen it weighed at a local shop with 32 inch barrels and know that to be true. Some of you fail to actually do the research and then spread bad information. The bottom line is the weight of the Sporting model is in line with the other guns in that price group. If you don't like the gun, fine. You don't need to lie about it.



Accusing rufus of lying seems harsh; and he never said he didn't like the Blaser. I thought he was being nice looking up the answers for the question you asked. And if you knew the answer, why did you ask the question? Boy, no good deed goes unpunished. MAJ

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 Post subject: Re: Returning shooter, what's good value in 12ga around ~5$k
PostPosted: Sun Jun 03, 2018 5:32 pm 
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fredka wrote:
I owe myself a divorce present, so I'm looking for a high quality over-under in 12ga for skeet, 5-stand, and sporting clays. Trap isn't really my thing. Budget is $5k although I'm not insistent on spending all of that or I could stretch a bit for the right gun.


There's no need to spend $5K unless you really want to. Your choice, of course.



Check it out for yourself, you'll be impressed @ $2,795 MSRP.



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