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 Post subject: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:48 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2013 1:22 am
Posts: 84
Location: Wernersville, PA
There's an older guy I shoot with who regularly, read every squad, flinches at least 3 times. He shoots between 20&23 but he sees 3-6 extra birds every squad than the rest of us. I know people can flinch once in a great while but I've often wondered if he isn't claiming to have flinched because he didn't like a particular bird. Should he be called on it? Should it be pointed out to the scorer or the guy who runs our trap program? What are the rules regarding something like this? Any information would be appreciated, thanks.



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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 12:53 pm 
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I'm not a trap guy but is there some trap rule that gives you a do-over if you flinch?!? In my book it would be a 'shooter malfunction' and scored lost. ??


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:27 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 29, 2018 10:42 am
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If shooting registered, a flinch is considered an allowable failure to fire. You get 2 FTF in each sub event. Each one after the second FTF is a lost target.

It's pretty easy to tell if it's a true flinch, as he would involuntarily jerk/move/step/fall/faceplant forward.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:29 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04 pm
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I'm no expert but barring the obvious flinch / faceplant described above, if I were scoring I'd call lost and tell him that now is as good a time as ever to learn not to flinch.

My crystal ball is telling me some "older guy" somewhere is going to get all butt-hurt in the near future. :)


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 1:35 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:02 pm
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Location: Central Pennsylvania and Southwest Florida
Two mulligans per sub-event. (What is a sub-event?) I need to switch to trap.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:51 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2519
x-rated has it right in ATA events. In club events, it is what ever is allowed. In practice, most card/token machine are set for 27 targets.

The sad part is the guy needs a release trigger but has probably bought in to the anti-release trigger clubhouse BS.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 3:59 pm 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:54 pm
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Location: Evanston, Illinois
It's not really a mulligan because if he shoots it counts. The rule was instituted as a safety measure.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:25 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2727
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
HenryVac wrote:
tell him that now is as good a time as ever to learn not to flinch.

I take it you've never been afflicted with the dreaded flinch?
You can't "learn" to not flinch.

To the OP: you can tell if the flinch is genuine by watching the shooter's reaction. In any case, after two flinches per round, the targets should properly be called 'lost'.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 11:39 am 
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Location: Brillion, WI
I believe that additional causes for lost targets should be added to flinches since they are also problematic. Included should "I didn't see it well," "I blinked at the wrong time," soreness (hand, head, neck, foot), headache or hemimerids.

With each malady, like flinching, only the shooter is responsible. There is no forgiveness for slow reaction time, wrong gun hold or stance and none for inconsistent gun mounts or arm swinging the gun.

If a shooter has these problems, he must accept lower scores as a result. The same should hold true for flinching, in my opinion. Two allowed flinches cheapens the sport.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:29 am
Posts: 29
"Two allowed flinches cheapens the sport." I agree. I didn't know that was allowable until I read it here. Has this been a rule forever or recently added?

Recently I was shooting ATA on a bit of a windy day. The targets looked like they were going up stairsteps. A gentleman on our squad was breaking them on about the second step and was scoring well. I mentioned to him after the event that a little wind didn't seem to bother him, that he was shooting them when they were done climbing.
He laughed and said that wasn't the case at all: He was just fighting a terrible flinch and those shots were the result.

Bryand


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:02 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:02 am
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Let me take it one step further... ANY allowed flinches cheapens the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:34 am 
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Joined: Sat Apr 30, 2005 12:54 pm
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Location: Evanston, Illinois
Apparently there is a lack of understanding a to the purpose in allowing flinches as an allowable failure to fire. Anytime a shooter failed to shoot at a legally thrown target it was necessary for the scorer to leave his chair walk over to the shooter who was holding a loaded gun with his finger on the trigger. This was rightly determined to be a dangerous and time consuming requirement. To eliminate this as much as possible the rule included any cause that was considered involuntary. It can't be equated with a "malady" since it doesn't
apply if a shot is fired. This issue has been discussed for years and the pro's and cons considered by the ATA at every level. I can understand that the less experienced people on this forum wouldn't have understood this.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:48 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 6:57 pm
Posts: 2519
dickgtax is correct. The two FTF rule was put in to eliminate time consuming reviews and arguments. As such, it doesn't matter whether you flinched, sneezed or had a bad shell. Ya get two per 25 and the squad keeps shooting.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:36 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:29 am
Posts: 29
Jim Tyner wrote:
dickgtax is correct. The two FTF rule was put in to eliminate time consuming reviews and arguments. As such, it doesn't matter whether you flinched, sneezed or had a bad shell. Ya get two per 25 and the squad keeps shooting.




I guess I can understand that. Thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:39 pm 
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04 pm
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mudpack wrote:
I take it you've never been afflicted with the dreaded flinch?
You can't "learn" to not flinch.


Unless I’m misunderstanding what you guys mean by a “flinch”, why not?

I’ve learned how to not flinch with my .44 magnum revolver with hot, Buffalo Bore ammo. Why can’t / shouldn’t someone do the same with a shotgun? And why shouldn’t their score suffer accordingly if they can’t learn to do so?


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 6:57 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2006 3:20 pm
Posts: 619
HenryVac wrote:
mudpack wrote:
I take it you've never been afflicted with the dreaded flinch?
You can't "learn" to not flinch.


Unless I’m misunderstanding what you guys mean by a “flinch”, why not?

I’ve learned how to not flinch with my .44 magnum revolver with hot, Buffalo Bore ammo. Why can’t / shouldn’t someone do the same with a shotgun? And why shouldn’t their score suffer accordingly if they can’t learn to do so?


Unless you've "been there" it's impossible to explain.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:00 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 15, 2010 2:24 pm
Posts: 8154
Location: Upstate SC
I shoot mainly Sporting Clays and 5 Stand, as well as a fair amount of Skeet and a Little Trap. And do a lot of waterfowl and Upland hunting. And my Grandfather was a Champion Trap Shooter.

And I’ve read for about 20 years about “flinches”.

The truth is, this afflicts Trap shooters more than any other disciplines. You can’t really discuss it here, as the release trigger guys will immediately shout you down.

And yes, some guys will probably need to go to a release trigger if they want to keep competing in clay target shooting. Some guys overcome it.

With out going into this in detail I think it’s important to know what you should do to NOT develop a flinch.

Shooting heavy handicap loads for years is certainly a factor for some guys.

Many others have visual problems which are compounded by barrel checking.

Almost nobody that I’ve known that shoots low gun or that bird hunts seems to develop a “flinch” while shooting that way.

I think in Trap; the repetiveness; years of shooting heavy loads; and the fact that to successfully compete means you can’t miss a bird out of a hundred thrown leads to a mind/eye/hand issue resulting in a flinch.

Like the guy above; I’ve seen rifle and pistol shooters overcome this with training and practice. But the common sentiment here is that once it happens “you need a release trigger(s)”.

Gil Ash and others think it’s mainly a mental/visual issue for MANY.

To the OP’s question though, the rules are the rules. Two mulligans per round for those claiming they flinched. Doesn’t seem OK though.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:39 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Fri May 09, 2008 9:17 pm
Posts: 2727
Location: Kansas, Land of Oz
I don't flinch at skeet, 5-stand, nor sporting clays.
I flinch a LOT at trap.
I have occasionally flinched when I'm duck hunting.

Since it is involuntary, you can't teach yourself to not flinch....any more than you can learn to not blink when someone suddenly hits you on the nose with a rolled-up newspaper.


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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:01 am 
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Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:02 pm
Posts: 5506
Location: Central Pennsylvania and Southwest Florida
I never worried about why I flinched I worried about getting rid of the flinch. A double release trigger did the job for me. I have said many times before, if my flinch magically disappeared I would not return to a pull trigger.

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 Post subject: Re: How Much Flinching?
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:13 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2017 4:04 pm
Posts: 52
I guess I’m still confused. Not being sarcastic, just genuinely confused if trap shooters have a different definition of the word “flinch”. When using the word with regard to pistol or rifle, I mean it as an jerk or twitch or blink in anticipation of the recoil. I occasionally load a revolver cylinder with one snap cap and five live rounds, give it a spin without looking, and practice that sort of “zen” zone that you have to be in to tell yourself that the recoil and muzzle blast is going to smack you no matter what, so you just need to let it hit you AFTER getting the shot off in a relaxed state.

Yes I’ve certainly experienced a flinch that afflicts most new shooters, but I made myself stop so as to shoot better. With a heavy revolver or magnum big game rifle it’s not just “possible” to overcome that flinch, it’s essential if you’re going to shoot tiny groups at long ranges. That’s the difference between someone who’s a bad shot and someone who’s a good shot. If someone was in a benchrest rifle competition and asked for a do-over because he flinched, I’d suggest it’s time to get his testosterone level checked.

But again - and I mean this in all seriousness - maybe you guys are meaning “flinch” differently than common usage.




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