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 Post subject: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Tue Jun 05, 2018 8:46 pm 
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Anybody here ever use AMS oil synthetic 2-cycle oil? I been looking at the manual for my Johnson Colt outboard, and it says if I use AMS I can mix it 100:1 instead of 50:1.

Looks like it would be a little less expensive for me to use the AMS cause I only gotta use half as much. But does the stuff work?



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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 5:55 am 
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Good oil is cheaper than metal !

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 6:18 am 
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For one season (2012 I think) I ran it 75:1 in two engines. A 1973 65 HP Evinrude, and my 1989 Evinrude 6 HP kicker.
Both are still going.


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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 8:01 am 
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driller wrote:
Good oil is cheaper than metal !

Yep.

What's the cost from a single seizure from too thin an oil mix?

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:32 pm 
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Changing the oil ratio will also change the effect of the carb settings. Replacing half the oil content with gas will certainly make a difference.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:38 pm 
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OK.

I got the manual for the outboard right in front of me now.

It says- "This is a 2cycle engine that requires lubricant to mixed with gas. The recommended mix is 100:1. A 50:1 mix must be used during engine break-in."

Recomeded lubricant is omc 2cycle.

It goes on to say a mix of 50:1 "must be used at all times on recreational motors used for commercial or extended heavy duty service"

So, I been running 50:1 all then time. The thing is at top speed it acts like it has a touch of vapor lock, slowing down a touch and then running normal.

Edit- Curly, on the Colt outboads there are two knobs under the throttle lever for low and high speed carb settings. I never touch them but I could if I need to.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 12:51 pm 
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I’m an old Johnson/Evinrude mechanic. Believe me at 100:1 you are living on the edge. Everything will be fine until you have a water pump failure and things begin to heat up or you run your high speed jet too lean which also produces extra heat. Either condition will cause failure quicker than a mixture with higher oil content.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Wed Jun 06, 2018 3:29 pm 
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Having blown up a $12,000 (then) Evinrude that had the oil injection system on it I would be hesitate to take any chances with oil mix. Later I found out that vintage Evinrude was blowing up all over the place. People in the know went back to mixing oil. I solved that problem with a 4 cycle Honda, but it cost me. I grew up with OMC motors and I have run the small motors on small boats and as kickers many, many miles- at 50:1. Why mess with success?

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:59 am 
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Evinrude/Johnson recanted that 100:1 mix a year or two after they sold a bunch of motors so marked.
The 100:1 would have worked fine in a perfect world, but people are not perfect.


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 Post subject: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:21 am 
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PS, the original OMC corporation has been out of business since 2000.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Thanks to all for sharing your opinions. {hs#

I tried the Colt out with a pint of 75:1 mix today and it runs a lot smoother on the high end of throttle. Did not have to adjust the needle valves on the carb. But, that 75:1 sounds risky from what i am hearing here.

Maybe I will try 50:1 again with no-ethanol ga$oline.

casonet wrote:
PS, the original OMC corporation has been out of business since 2000.
I did not know that. I used to see their ads for sterndrives frequently.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:23 pm 
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I've run ethanol gas in boats for 40 years, never a problem, but then I run it through a Mk-IV Chevrolet at 5 to 10 gph rate, no oil added, and metal tanks.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:47 pm 
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Oldstuffer, this Colt was made in '87 and the owners manual mentions 10% ethanol blend, saying it is o.k. to use. Well, it can't be that great to use cause it strictly warns against higher ethanol blends. Its a 43cc water cooled engine. I think the water cooling has something to do with the reason they say one can use a 100:1 mix in the owner's manual.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:46 am 
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I asked your same question over on marineengine.com several years ago when I wanted to run 100:1 oil in my vintage engines. All of the experts over there said don't do it, go 50:1. I only went through 2 quarts at 75:1. The 73' 65HP ate most of that fuel. We skied quite a bit.
From my memory the gist of it was, any engine from the late 80's on can run 100:1, but and it is a big but, there is no room for error. Say you forget to add oil to your tank after a 3/4 fill up. Then what is your ratio? A new engine will be in your future.
What do those new E-Tecs run at, something like 300:1 don't they?


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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:45 am 
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oldthompson wrote:
Oldstuffer, this Colt was made in '87 and the owners manual mentions 10% ethanol blend, saying it is o.k. to use. Well, it can't be that great to use cause it strictly warns against higher ethanol blends. Its a 43cc water cooled engine. I think the water cooling has something to do with the reason they say one can use a 100:1 mix in the owner's manual.

Water cooled engines run cooler than air cooled engines.

Cooler engines are less likely to have detonation/pre-ignition.

Water cooled engines also are able to run tighter tolerances for moving parts, because parts that heat less expand less. This makes them effectively last longer before piston ring and cylinder sleeve wear reduce power so far they are put out of business until overhauled. Engines have to be built to run when at operating temperature, this makes them "loose" when cold. An engine that operates at 300 or 350 degrees has pistons expanded larger and cylinders expanded smaller (because it's a tube) than an engine operating at 200 degrees.
Raise the operating temperature of a 200 degree-built engine to 300+ and you run the risk of seizing it, the pistons sticking to the walls of a too-small cylinder, or the ring end gap closing completely and ripping the top off the piston, or just getting pre-ignition from poor fuel or other causes and melting pistons.

Piston skirts touch the cylinder walls, lightly generally, this causes no harm IF there is a bit of oil there. If there is not enough oil there, it scuffs. Keep scuffing, you'll get a seizure sooner or later. The ONLY oil you get there in a 2-stroke, is in the gasoline.

The fix is only a new set of cylinders, a new set of pistons, rings, gaskets for it all, and a lot of hours in your garage or $100/hr labor from your marine mechanic.

High concentrations of alcohol (doesn't matter methanol or ethanol) are actually corrosive, they require fuel systems specially designed for this. High concentrations of alcohol are corrosive to the metal parts, steel lines, aluminum tanks, zinc carburetors, steel fuel injectors even. I know racers who run straight alcohol. They fill the boat on Saturday, do whatever all weekend, Sunday evening, they drain the fuel system empty and flush with water to avoid it corroding the whole works up.
I wonder about the future of 85% ethanol fuel systems, no, I do not use one.
I suspect FEW will ever see 85% regularly, the cost is 20% lower, you discover the mileage is about 30% worse, so you spend more money on E85.
10% ethanol was hard on the rubber fuel system parts (lines and carburetor parts) used in the 70's when it was first released until they had to change those components to neoprenes and so on.

Ethanol-laced gasoline will simply dissolve the resin out of built-in boat fiberglass tanks, this is the one screaming no-no of ethanol-laced gasoline.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:22 am 
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Long ago I had a couple of air cooled boat motors. No thanks, I wouldn’t care for anymore.

I can still get alcohol free gas, and have always used it in boat motors unless I was in a situation where I couldn’t get it. I also use alcohol free in my 1956 toy car and usually in my other small motors.

Old stuff doesn’t seem to do well on lead free gas full of alcohol. Lead free gas has the reputation of burning out valves in the old stuff . When rebuilding an old engine most people put in hardened valves.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:26 am 
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We could talk about problems with modern motor oil in older engines with solid lifters, but that is getting away from 2 cycle boat motors.


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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 12:40 pm 
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chucka wrote:
Long ago I had a couple of air cooled boat motors. No thanks, I wouldn’t care for anymore.

I can still get alcohol free gas, and have always used it in boat motors unless I was in a situation where I couldn’t get it. I also use alcohol free in my 1956 toy car and usually in my other small motors.

Old stuff doesn’t seem to do well on lead free gas full of alcohol. Lead free gas has the reputation of burning out valves in the old stuff . When rebuilding an old engine most people put in hardened valves.

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“The difference between a human being ten years of age and one fifty years of age lies altogether in the matter of toys.”— Austin O’Malley

It doesn't "burn out the valves", but it DOES cause problems.

Tetraethyl Lead did several things in gasoline, more than just Octane Boosting.
It acted as a "cushion" between the valves and their seats preventing and minimizing wear between those steel and iron surfaces.

When the lead was removed, the valves wore down the seats in the heads, gradually receding into the head, gradually closing up the lash in the valve train, eventually the valves would not close completely. THIS "burned out" valves, being unable to close.
The "burning" was the end result of non-lead-based wear and failure to maintain valve lash.

This problem was solved, as you noted, with induction hardened steel valve seats. Steel seats and steel valves, both hard, wear less than hard steel on soft iron.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:51 pm 
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Burned out works for me. Takes less time to explain. I put hardened valves and seats in my old car motor just in case.

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 Post subject: Re: AMS 2-cycle Oil
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:02 pm 
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Same Unintended Consequences came with ultra-low-sulfur diesel fuel.

The sulfur had a lubricating effect inside the high-pressure injection pump, removing the sulfur ate the pumps up in short order until the pumps were redesigned to cope.



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