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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:28 pm 
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My uncle retired from the LAPD and claims to have never fired a gun at an individual.

Beat the hell out of a few with his night stick though. Few whacks would have settled it.




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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:07 pm 
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Cops are pretty quick to draw their weapons these days. No more heroes I guess. If a cop ever points his weapon at me and threatens to shoot i think I'll just stick my hands in the air and calmly ask, "Whatcha waiting for son?". They got real strict rules on shooting potential suicides. :twisted:

Did you see the way MKE P.D. did Sterling Brown? Dudes on the ground handcuffed already surrounded and some pig felt obligated to stand on Brown's ankle.

I'm sorry but I've lost a lot of respect for law enforcement over the last five years or so. What ever happened to discretion among cops?

Cripes, I've had cops lie straight to my face, even caught one entering my vehicle without just cause or consent when i wasnt around. What ever happened to public servant serving the public? Can the cops please try policing themselves?

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:23 pm 
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Most recent case in my neck of the woods involved a former combat veteran turned cop. He, among several other cops, were called to a house to prevent a teen's suicide.

Whole episode is recorded on video.

Teen starts backing out of the garage in a van, at about a walking pace. Combat vet-turned cop, among others, yelling for him to stop. He doesn't. War hero/cop puts 13 rounds into the 4mph van, no one else shoots. Nobody was in any danger from the van, which coasts to a stop with the dead kid inside.

Voila! Suicide successfully prevented!

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:55 pm 
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Im with you on that combat veterans probably shouldn't be cops.

Because, killing the enemy and breaking the enemy's stuff is just like serving and protecting the citizens. Cops and soldiers both use guns, what's the difference? Amiright?

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2018 10:22 pm 
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There many moral lessons, to be drawn from this tragic event.

First and foremost, if you are on the road, call your wife and kids, and don't invite some other woman to your hotel room and start drinking booze. Had Shaver remembered he was a married man, he'd be alive today.

If you are young woman out looking for a good time, and a man who says he shoots pests with a pellet rifle invites you to his hotel room for drinks and to show you his pellet guns, keep looking for Mr. Wonderful. He's likely married, with a wife and kids back home somewhere.

And the next time you think you want to play Judas with your cell phone, and call in a couple of drunks fooling around with a pellet rifle, go on with your own business. If they were assassins, you'd know it. Calling the law on someone is about the worst thing anybody can do, to their fellow man. You'll have to live with the consequences, and besides, when is the last time you ever heard anyone say "I called the police, and I'm so happy I did, they came and solved my problem and made everything all better"?

But Shaver was fooling around, had a girl in his room, was drunk, messing with his pellet rifles, in a hotel, and some cell phone Judas called the law.

Shaver, was in trouble, real bad.

So the Sergeant and his sidekick, the guy with the AR-15 with the "You're Screwed" on the case, are responding to the erroneous call that there's an armed and dangerous subject in room so and so at the hotel. Their blood, is up, and they are riding to the rescue!

The Sergeant, should have already busted the gun ho cop for his kill em' all attitude. He's responsible for this guy. He's in command. It was a bad decision, to let him be there, and even worse to give him the authority to fire on his own volition. An innocent man is dead, and the Sergeant, was responsible for the mission to put that man in custody, in one piece, and he surely failed to do that.

And unseen, the Sergeant had a superior, who was responsible for him, and should have had that Sergeant so afraid of that superior, that he'd not think of letting some trigger happy cop do his shooting for him. That trigger happy cop should have been weeded out long ago. He's responsible for this death, as well.

And as for the shooter,,,, the trigger happy cop,,,the moral is to hire a good lawyer, when you do some damned fool thing like killing a drunk begging for his life on the carpet in the hallway of a hotel.

Somewhere unseen, is one hell of a good lawyer.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 3:03 pm 
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4 days ago there was a SWATting at the Davig Hogg family residence, Coral Springs Florida.

Yes, that Hogg.

No injuries or deaths (but we have already determined how Coward Co. Florida reacts to hostages/shootings), this was Coral Springs PD response.

Hogg himself wasn't home, he was in Wash. DC receiving some BS award for some of his BS.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 6:54 pm 
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Since the Ferguson Missouri incident police everywhere have been running scared! They have been ambushed is various scenes, etc. However, this shooting appears too have been unnecessary!!

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:01 am 
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Location: Tbilisi,Georgia
OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
vikram wrote:
lossking wrote:
That cop would not have wanted me on the jury...


Neither me. It was very difficult to watch. The guy giving the commands himself was so high-strung and did not help in at least diffusing the situation to some extent.

A tragic and needless death and the guy who shot him just got away.

I'll let you in on a little secret.

The police are trained to give LOUD, repeated, clear commands, because in "high-pressure" situations (like MWAG calls), the people the police want control of DON'T LISTEN. Sometimes it's recalcitrance, sometimes it's confusion, a lot of stuff happening real fast and some people can't digest it that fast.
They don't "de-escalate" until the situation is under control.


Fortunately for most of the public at large though,, Shaver did nothing whatsoever wrong.
While I am being sarcastic, there is a large grain of truth there,,, isn't there?

Quote:
He invited two acquaintances to his room for drinks.
There he showed them a scoped air rifle he was using to exterminate birds inside grocery stores. At one point the gun was pointed outside his hotel window, prompting a witness to notify the front desk; the police were immediately called. Upon arrival, police gave Shaver and his acquaintances detailed orders for several minutes, with frequent admonitions that failing to comply with them would get them shot.


A LOT of non-gun people in this world panic their knickers at the sight of a gun, ANY gun.
Shaver's #1 mistake was letting someone outside that room see his gun.
Shaver's #1A mistake was too much booze.

If a cop ever tells you "failure to comply will get you shot", I suggest complying, to teh letter.

Quote:
Eventually, Shaver was ordered to put his hands up in the air and not to bring them down for any reason, and then crawl on his knees towards them. Shaver subsequently appeared to lose his balance and reach his right hand behind him, at which point Langley can be heard yelling "Do not!" while officer Phillip Brailsford simultaneously opened fire with his AR-15 rifle

Had he fell over backwards with his hands over his head,, he'd be alive today.
He stuck at least one hand behind him where it couldn't be seen, which incidentally puts that hand the same place an FBI agent was keeping his Glock until it threw itself onto the dance floor in Colorado last week.

The devil is almost never in the video, it's in the details that take too much effort to look at, or consider.

The black CCH-er shot to death a couple years ago at a car stop.
Clue for folks,, he wasn't stopped for a broken tailight, that is the girlfriend's BS story, he was stopped because he, and the car, looked like the guy and car from an armed robbery a couple nights earlier in the same area.
Then he didn't keep his hands up, he insisted on dragging out his gun to 'disarm' himself- mistake #1. This despite cops telling him not to, so he got himself shot.
The gun was in his lap on the video.

How many cops got shot last year by unarmed people?
They all LOOK unarmed don't they?
We all look unarmed,, don't we?
I was carrying a sizeable sum of money around all yesterday afternoon, and 3 loaded guns. No-one at the auction or the restaurant saw them, I make efforts to 'look unarmed'.

However it is far easier for the public who aren't there, to just go "the guy was unarmed, so he shouldn't have been shot".
It's easy when you've never had to make that split-instant call and decide if the guy is "just falling", or if he's 'falling' while reaching for a gun.
Shoot wrong, you may go to prison.
Don't shoot wrong, and you may die.
How do you choose it perfectly every time?

No, the cop shouldn't have shot him,, but I know why he did, I understand why he did, unlike most of the Monday Morning Quarterbacks who have never been there and who will never be there.
But they will happily sit on juries.

IMO the DA did the same thing they did in Virginia a few years back over Freddy Grey, they over-charged and couldn't prove it.

Eric Garner, 2014, who the MMQB'ers would love to blame on a New York City choke-hold arrest for Selling Un-Taxed Cigarettes.
The devil in the details however brings up he had a very bad heart AND decided not to "go quietly" but to actively resist, forcibly wrestling with a half dozen cops, and the heart didn't approve, and it quit. He EFFECTIVELY suicided by wrestling with the cops with a bad heart.
Quote:
"Contributing Conditions: "Acute and chronic bronchial asthma; Obesity; Hypertensive cardiovascular disease".



You do make several pertinent arguments.

There is a difference between trained dogs, programmed robots and normal, functioning human beings. I watched the video again several times. What prevented them from asking Mr Shaver from removing his t-shirt so that they could be sure he was not hiding a gun there? He could have been asked to stay prostate while one could have gone to check him. One could argue they were being cautious about being ambushed by someone in the room. Then they let the girl pass while they were entirely focused on him. Was there any guarantee that she could not have been armed?

Mr Shaver's hand comes down empty at which moment he is shot. Not before. The officer who shot him was waiting for the wrong move.

Speaking of quarterbacks, if only police were to sit in the juries, then they will be judge, jury and executioners. There is a reason why that is not the case.

I have no agenda against the police. I place policing as the single most important function of the state. While police have no reason to take needless risks to their lives, there is an element of risk given the sections of people they deal with. If one is unwilling to take that risk, then they should be in a different profession. That is my personal opinion, of course.

Best-
Vikram


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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 11:11 am 
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Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2016 10:39 pm
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This completely unnecessary shooting is the most disgraceful, cowardly piece of "police work" I hope to never see again. Heroes???? Simply because they wear a uniform? Not in my book. To be a hero, one has to have done something heroic. This is as far away from heroic behavior as it is possible to get. This does irreparable harm to the relations between cops and citizens.

That "cop", and I use that term as loosely as possible, should have NEVER been authorized to carry a gun, let alone fire one.

The "cop" yelling the ridiculous instructions would have been right at home in the SS.

I can only hope their superiors have been awakened to the psychological fitness of these two and can see that the only difference between them and a plain-old killer is one has a badge.

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-Securitization
Take your pick.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 4:33 pm 
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It seems like the perfect storm; pissed up cretin waggles a gun out of a hotel window only to be confronted by two incompetant police officers with not much training evident. It would be good to hear Ev's views on that aspect.

Taking Super's somewhat sniffy point about the people who finked Shaver, frankly my dear so would I have done.

Eug

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:17 pm 
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eugene molloy wrote:
It seems like the perfect storm; pissed up cretin waggles a gun out of a hotel window only to be confronted by two incompetant police officers with not much training evident. It would be good to hear Ev's views on that aspect.

Taking Super's somewhat sniffy point about the people who finked Shaver, frankly my dear so would I have done.

Eug

No, we don't need Ev's take on this. We already know how he trained his "troops". It would just be a rerun and, really, we've seen that movie before.


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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 10:26 pm 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:




Hogg himself wasn't home, he was in Wash. DC receiving some BS award for some of his BS.

Sure your right , the same pile who attacks others and claiming they only care about money , meanwhile getting book deals and profiting off of the deaths of others , not too hard to figure out the old sayings “follow the money trail”.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:22 am 
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Vettel Jockey posted
Quote:
No, we don't need Ev's take on this. We already know how he trained his "troops"
You may, but I don't that's why I mentioned it.

Ferinstance ...... what is the laid down policy and procedure when the initial phone call is received by the police operator"? Is there a generic plan, and what is the training, if any, given to those who have to apply to it? Who is the Incident Commander, or is one not involved? What steps are taken to isolate the perp from the public, and establish safe zones, and who is responsible for defining and maintaining them?

That's just for starters, there's a lot more, the well of my ignorance truly runs deep. :wink:

I've been a white hat at chemical disaster sites working with the UK Police, and I know something of their training for work of that nature, mostly because I conducted some of it. By osmosis I gained an insight into the Firearms Officers training, and I have to say it's just a tad different from the crass incompetence of these two Bozos.

Eug

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Last edited by eugene molloy on Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:07 am 
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eugene molloy wrote:
finked


My vocabulary is by no means limited, if I may say so. However, I almost always pick a new word or two whenever you post. :oops: :D {hs#

Best-
Vikram


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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:25 am 
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eugene molloy wrote:
It seems like the perfect storm; pissed up cretin waggles a gun out of a hotel window only to be confronted by two incompetant police officers with not much training evident. It would be good to hear Ev's views on that aspect.

Taking Super's somewhat sniffy point about the people who finked Shaver, frankly my dear so would I have done.

Eug


I thought I had to call the police once, when somebody stole a fine Guild guitar out of the rear seat of my unlocked car, parked in my driveway.

My dear old Mama was still alive, but barely, and of course I didn't tell her that I'd chosen to follow Judas. It would have not only broken her heart, she'd have asked me why I left my valuable guitar in the car, and why I hadn't locked the car, and what would I do if the thief turned out to be a young boy, who couldn't afford even one guitar, when I had so many guitars, and thought so little of them, I'd leave them in the back seat of my Cadillac unlocked, in the driveway of my fine, comfortable home.

And then she'd have smiled, and watched me look guilty of selfishness.

I only called the law, because my homeowner's insurance required it. I received a check for a thousand dollars, which somehow looked like thirty pieces of silver. I immediately spent the entire check on another used Guild guitar, as close to my old one as I could find.

Then, to my shock and horror, many months later, the local police actually caught the thief.

He was a homeless drunk, who was staying with a couple of other drunks who'd inherited a home, and the drunks all got in a falling out over some girl they were all seeing.

The girl ratted out all three drunks to the police, for stealing my guitar.

The two brothers, who owned the home, ratted out the homeless guy as the one who actually opened the door to my car and actually took the guitar, although they told him not to take it.

When questioned by the police, the homeless guy hung his head, confessed he'd taken my guitar, and said he'd pawned it for twenty dollars to a pawn shop, but he'd go redeem it and bring it to the police, and he was sorry he'd stolen the guitar, but he didn't have one. He'd only pawned it for the price of a bottle of whiskey.

The police chief had no hopes, he'd redeem the guitar, but that afternoon my guitar appeared at the station, a little scuffed, and with some scratches and dents, where he'd played it, and I saw where he'd changed the strings.

I know the local prosecuting attorney well. I rarely get on my knees, but I begged him not to charge that man as an habitual offender, as he had two prior felonies.

He knows I'm a Campbellite, and he smiled and allowed the man to plead to time served, and I do not feel like such the Judas that I am.

I called the insurance company, and they let me keep the old guitar as my deductible, because I had new replacement value insurance.

Just about the time, I thought I'd gotten off free, my insurance company raised my rates.

I've paid for that guitar, many times over, ever since.

Think, before you call the law.

Make sure, you think of all the collateral costs of playing Judas.

At least, nobody died from my cop calling, but a man came close to spending his life in prison, because I didn't take my good guitar in the house, after I went to the nursing home to play and sing for my dear old mother and her friends there.

It was really, my fault.

There's not a chance I'd have called the law on some drunks fooling around with a pellet rifle.

Somebody else can do that, but I can't.

I tried that once, and it didn't turn out very well for anybody.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:58 am 
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Oh brother :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:35 am 
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crustyrusty wrote:
Oh brother :roll:




When O Brother came out, I was hoping that old time music might become popular again. The Lord knows we need more good morals and values, and most of all, personal responsibility, in this old sin cussed world.

But every time I try to listen to this new country music, the only thing they sing about is getting drunk with a bunch of wild women.

That does sound like fun, but I'm too old and too married for that stuff anymore, and besides, the police today might shoot a man for having fun, rather than just put him in the jailhouse way downtown.

And everybody and his brother and his kids have one of those cell phones today, and Judas is the only example they know to follow.

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:08 pm 
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Sorry Super we're not going to agree on either point, Shaver or thieves.

Given the recent unpleasantnesses in the US, notably LA, sticking a rifle out of a hotel window is not going to be regarded, by me at least, as a friendly or reasonable gesture. It's possible to put the boot on the other foot; let's say he really was a Stephen Paddock wannabe and after he extinguished a handful of your fellow citizens, what reaction would you expect when you said "Oh yes I saw him and his gun a few minutes before, but I didn't want to upset anybody's applecart?"

I loathe thieves, and I take your point about the "official" consequences of turning one in, but that doesn't mean they should go scot free. Many years ago I caught a guy stealing metal from the yard of my small factory unit one Sunday morning. He'd climbed over the fence from the unit next door. He bleated on about please not calling the Rurales so I didn't. But believe me he didn't leave unmoved, and he never came back for any more.

Every other thief I've come across got turned in.

Eug

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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:57 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:
crustyrusty wrote:
Oh brother :roll:


The Lord knows we need more good morals and values, and most of all, personal responsibility, in this old sin cussed world.



Aren’t you a lawyer???


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 Post subject: Re: The Shooting of Daniel Shaver by Mesa Police
PostPosted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:01 am 
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