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 Post subject: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:05 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
Posts: 213
Location: Missoula, MT
I am struggling with hitting the second bird of doubles on stations 2 and 6. The reason for this is that I’m hitting the first bird late, over the center stake. I’m working on hitting the target earlier, so I can also use sustained lead when shooting the second bird, but in the meantime, I’d like to learn how to hit the second bird with the swing through method. (I read that most Olympic shooters use this method to shoot the second bird of doubles.)

My question is: When I’m looking for the second bird and then swinging though it should I also be looking just above my barrel?

When I use sustained lead I never look at my barrel.

Thanks,

Randy




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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:27 pm 
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randyflycaster wrote:
I am struggling with hitting the second bird of doubles on stations 2 and 6. The reason for this is that I’m hitting the first bird late, over the center stake. I’m working on hitting the target earlier, so I can also use sustained lead when shooting the second bird, but in the meantime, I’d like to learn how to hit the second bird with the swing through method. (I read that most Olympic shooters use this method to shoot the second bird of doubles.)

My question is: When I’m looking for the second bird and then swinging though it should I also be looking just above my barrel?

When I use sustained lead I never look at my barrel.

Thanks,

Randy


I can't tell you where you should be looking or what you should be seeing, but I'm going to take a semi-educated guess as to where you're missing and how to fix it.

In my opinion, since you're shooting the first bird late, you're having to swing the gun barrels pretty fast to catch up with the second bird before it disappears behind the house. Also, since you're a sustained lead shooter, you're trying to see the same lead on this bird as you would when shooting it as a single.

The result is that you are blowing past the second bird and shooting in front of it. If you're going to continue to shoot the first bird late and then hurry to catch the second bird, you don't need to see ANY lead on the second bird. Shoot right at it or perhaps an inch or so behind it and the speed of your muzzle will take care of any lead that you may need.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 12:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:57 pm
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2 and 6 second bird is coming at you and is slowing down on its way. Not much lead. Focus on the front of the bird.


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2018 5:04 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2014 4:23 pm
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You really ought to learn to shoot the first bird earlier. Getting a good start is super important for H2 and L6 - singles or doubles.


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:33 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
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Location: Missoula, MT
Ulysses,
Thanks so much for your reply. Yes, I must adjust my leads when using swing through.
Randy


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 9:04 am 
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I often think of Station 2/6 as "Panic... but don't panic". I try to move on the flash... I mean REALLY on the first blur of anything I see moving in my peripheral vision. In theory this should be done on all stations, but there's a margin of error everywhere else. But after I start the move, I have to remind myself that I do have a little bit of time on the first bird. Chances are that you break it sooner than you think and it certainly doesn't need to be halfway to the stake. So a fast but smooth, predictable move is preferred.

You can shoot it swing through, and yes, its a preferred Olympic method, but their birds are smaller, moving a lot faster, and they have to start from a low mount. There can be anywhere from a 0-3 second delay on the pull and they can't move until the target does. Even if you swing through in 'American' skeet, it still benefits you kill the first bird as early as you can. You should still be able to develop a hard focus on the second bird before you shoot at it - I think that is key. I find myself screwing that up from time to time - hitting the first bird and then shooting at the first hint of orange my brain picks up before really processing it it. Ulysses is right. By the time the second bird is past the center stake, it starts to slow down and there's not much lead, but it's also changing in nature, becoming more a crosser than an incomer. For me that's the beauty of getting the first bird fast - the second is still and incomer and I can shoot almost right at it as long as I keep the gun moving.

That's just how I "see" it and you'll eventually find something that works. Spend couple of boxes of shells on 2/6 and experiment. You'll miss a few with any new method, but that's to be expected. Don't panic and go back to the old until you're sure the new process isn't working. It may take some time before you find "the answer" but don't get frustrated - everyone has to learn to shoot it consistently, and you will. And always remember that even when you do figure it out, you'll still miss it from time to time :)

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 10:25 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
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Location: Missoula, MT
I suspect I'm not moving as soon as I pick up the flash, which is why I'm killing the bird over the center stake.

Even when I start killing the bird earlier, as I should, I'd still like to learn the swing-through technique because, no matter how good a shooter I might become, there still will be times when I kill the first bird late and then I will be forced to use the swing-through technique.

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 11:40 am 
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randyflycaster wrote:
I suspect I'm not moving as soon as I pick up the flash, which is why I'm killing the bird over the center stake.

Even when I start killing the bird earlier, as I should, I'd still like to learn the swing-through technique because, no matter how good a shooter I might become, there still will be times when I kill the first bird late and then I will be forced to use the swing-through technique.

Randy


Using the "swing through" technique, you start behind the bird and pull the trigger the instant the barrel/bead touches the bird. No visible lead is required. If the bird is close (under 20 yards) and you're swinging the barrels fast, then you may even need to pull the trigger just slightly before you get to the bird.

It all depends on how quick your reactions are in relation to the distance to the target and the swing speed of the barrels. You just need to practice it a little bit to see what works for you on different shots.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 7:58 pm 
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Sounds like you are trying to perfect a method to correct for a bad start on the 1st bird. You should probably work to correct your bad start and the second bird is easy. You never have to correct from a good start.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:27 pm 
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Work on your hold and look points for the first bird, get someone at your local to help you if possible, you don't want to wind up with two problems, you can dig yourself into a hole real fast.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:20 am 
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Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 12:21 am
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Location: South Texas
reread the two posts above this one....they are both right. Where is your hold point? and don't start spouting the 1/3rd of way out gibberish, that is a starting point. Where is your hold point? iF YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. If it ain't working for you, YOU DON'T HAVE ONE. cORRECT HOLD POINT.

wHERE IS YOUR LOOK POINT? SAME DEAL AS ABOVE. Be precise! Be honest too. Is this bird beating your eyes? Are you chasing it with your eyes and gun? Bad start.

We get all hung up on the second bird and 9 times outta 10 it the first bird that messes us up even when we hit. If you can't correctly do hold point, look point, break point on the first bird.....STOP and fix that shot.

Once you have the first shot perfected, now you can know where to look for the second shot....and stop guessing where your brain thinks it is. Here is where you need help, another pair of eyes. Someone who will tell you what you are actually doing as opposed to what you THINK you're doing. Find a good instructor and go to work.

FYI... bet a wore out dollar bill....you are so worked over these doubles you are leaving on your call, not moving with the bird. I'd stand there and nasty pull you until started staying home.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 9:37 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
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Location: Missoula, MT
I am holding 1/3 of the way out. I am looking back almost halfway to the house.

I've had several coaches. Sadly, none of them have helped me very much. (I am not going to go into some of the reasons why.)

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 10:17 am 
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Randy... You may be looking too far back. Try something a little less than halfway to the house. When you see the bird, move with it. If you are looking at the bird, moving, and your barrel is ahead of the bird, pull the trigger. These are not birds where you have time to measure the lead. That just delays the shot with no gain to show for it. These shots are hand/eye coordination shots, not thinking and measuring. (Actually all Skeet shots are thus.)

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Last edited by Bob_K on Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 2:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2014 3:25 pm
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Location: Nampa, ID
Randy,
Your stated hold and look are exactly as taught, but are your eyes up in the target flight path? Mount the gun, have someone pull a target, adjust your look point up till you see the target clearly. Your eyes will generally need to be 1 foot to 18 inches above the barrel. As was pointed out above, you may be looking further back than you think. Both dimensions of eye placement will cause a late start. I have rarely seen a late start not caused by eye placement. Are you using your peripheral vision to initially acquire the target? If you wait for it to appear in your primary vision, this will cause a late start. The swing through technique will not correct your problem and will make doubles even tougher as it takes more time to get to the front of the target. Learn to shoot this target using sustained lead and it feel like you are moving in slow motion.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2018 5:53 pm 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 11:45 am
Posts: 213
Location: Missoula, MT
Yes, my eyes are up at the flight of the target.

I suspect I am not moving fast enough when I see the flash. When I started shooting I looked into the house windows. About six months ago, after reading articles by Shima and Giambrone, I started looking outside the house, usually about halfway back from my 1/3 hold points.

I also had (and still have) a bad habit of leaving early. Though I've been advised not to, I set my Clay Delay to release after a slight delay. This has helped keep me home until I see the flash.

Randy


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:05 pm 
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Bob_K wrote:
Randy... You may be looking too far back. Try something a little less than halfway to the house. When you see the bird, move with it. If you are looking at the bird, moving, and your barrel is ahead of the bird, pull the trigger. These are not birds where you have time to measure the lead. That just delays the shot with no gain to show for it. These shots are hand/eye coordination shots, not thinking and measuring. (Actually all Skeet shots are thus.)


Years ago, I had a fellow tell me to "look the lead" off the barrel, when bird gets there move the gun and fire. It does work, I think because at that time, I was very aware of the barrel. With the eyes much closer to the barrel to start with, I did not feel I had to re-aquire the barrel. It also cut out the "think time". Short version of that is trust your eyes not your brain.

Pull...Bang. Bob is right. Get aggressive.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 12:24 pm 
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You have to break the first bird before the stake, then all you have to do is look at where the hoop ought to be and the second bird will be there.

High 2 especially, I hold a bit further out than 1/3, and rotate my eyes back just a bit (probably the lead as mentioned above). I do not move my head.

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 3:27 pm 
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I think shooting 2H or 6L over the stake should be plenty early to get on the incomer. I routinely shoot them over the stake and have no problem getting on the second target. I even know some shooters who hit the outgoer well past the stake who have time to get the incomer. As soon as I pull the trigger on the first bird my eyes quickly shift to the second target and the shotgun follows. I don't even wait to see if I've broken the first target. It's see the lead, shoot, look for the incomer, get in front, shoot.


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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:12 pm 
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I think the terminology is a little confusing. You are swinging one way on the first bird of doubles, so you can use a "Sustained Lead", but you have no choice but to "Swing Through" when reversing you swing for the second bird, unless you shot the first bird so quick that you have enough time to reverse your swing and already be ahead of the second bird with out having to do any catch up.

For years I was just a "Swing Through" Skeet shooter. After a 20 year lapse of shooting I got some coaching and now I am working hard at converting to Sustained Lead, but not without some difficulties. Old Dogs and New Tricks at work.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: 2nd Bird of Doubles and Swing-Through Technique Question
PostPosted: Tue Jun 12, 2018 10:07 pm 
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Wherever the first bird is relative to center stake is basically where the second bird is on the opposite side of the stake. If you break first bird at the stake, the second bird is there. By the time you react you're playing catch up. If first bird is past the stake, so is the second bird.

If you break first bird before the stake, the second bird has not reached the stake either, you have time to be ahead of it. Also, as I said above, since the second target has not yet reached the stake you can shift your eyes to the hoop and aquire the second target without having to go search for the thing. It's more of a stick it and shoot it than it is an aquire and bleed lead off.



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