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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm 
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drawdc wrote:
I am still looking for your definition of unsustainable.


Ask the Executive Committee. They used this term in this sentence of the Minutes of their September 29, 2017 Meeting,

4. b. -Looking at number of members by age- demonstrates that we don’t have a sustainable
membership level


http://mynssa.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/ ... b-Approved




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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:45 pm 
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ShowMe wrote:
drawdc wrote:
I am still looking for your definition of unsustainable.


Ask the Executive Committee. They used this term in this sentence of the Minutes of their September 29, 2017 Meeting,

4. b. -Looking at number of members by age- demonstrates that we don’t have a sustainable
membership level


http://mynssa.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/ ... b-Approved


That’s pretty disheartening.

It’s sad to say, but the fact that this is about the only active site/forum/Etc.. where I can find American Skeet is being discussed says a lot.

In action pistol sports (USPSA) that I’ve been a part of for the last 7 years, there are countless active FB pages. Areas/zones have pages, there are multiple active forums, there are IG accounts. There is an up to date national scoring and results software, and a very good app that accompanies it.
All this is largely due to the fact that the younger generations are involved. Skeet Shoots are still filling up in my area it seems, but I’m worried that the shooters that may “retire” in the next 5-8 years are not going to be replaced.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:24 am 
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I assume they mean that more members are leaving do to death or incapacitation, then are joining as new members. I am working on setting up some Honors Only shoots that will result in low entrance fees and may attract some regular shotgunners to shooting some skeet. Since the NSSA and NYS Associations will provide free first year dues to new registered shooters, that is a help and those that are members of the NSCA are also automatically members. For casual shooters that I shoot with the thought of high entrance fees turn them off.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:32 am 
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drawdc wrote:
I am still looking for your definition of unsustainable. Having been at one large sold out shoot and one small, near capacity shoot in the past 3 weeks I am having a hard time with that concept.


May I ask what shoot that was?


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 7:59 am 
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ShowMe wrote:
Ask the Executive Committee. They used this term in this sentence of the Minutes of their September 29, 2017 Meeting,

4. b. -Looking at number of members by age- demonstrates that we don’t have a sustainable
membership level


http://mynssa.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/ ... b-Approved


It doesn't take a genius to see the high percentage of sub-senior (50 or older) and older shooters. Just as ex, 12ga at this years masters, 268 entries, 168 of them were over 50. Last years 12ga @ World was much worse, 505 of 667.

Best case scenario, a majority of sub-srs will be out of the game by choice or nature within the next 20 years. Seniors in the next 10, and veterans and older pretty much any time.

The game is not replenishing shooters at a 1:1 ratio, I would be surprised if it is at a 10:1 ratio.

Personally I believe we've already gone past the tipping point/point of no return, and we have maybe 10-15 years until we reach critical mass/insolvency for a majority of shoots.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:49 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
ShowMe wrote:
Ask the Executive Committee. They used this term in this sentence of the Minutes of their September 29, 2017 Meeting,

4. b. -Looking at number of members by age- demonstrates that we don’t have a sustainable
membership level


http://mynssa.nssa-nsca.org/wp-content/ ... b-Approved


It doesn't take a genius to see the high percentage of sub-senior (50 or older) and older shooters. Just as ex, 12ga at this years masters, 268 entries, 168 of them were over 50. Last years 12ga @ World was much worse, 505 of 667.

Best case scenario, a majority of sub-srs will be out of the game by choice or nature within the next 20 years. Seniors in the next 10, and veterans and older pretty much any time.

The game is not replenishing shooters at a 1:1 ratio, I would be surprised if it is at a 10:1 ratio.

Personally I believe we've already gone past the tipping point/point of no return, and we have maybe 10-15 years until we reach critical mass/insolvency for a majority of shoots.


You can run those kind of statistics for lots of things. I have previously stated the membership in the Porsche Club of America. Heavily weighted towards 50+ year olds. They will be replaced as younger folks move into a financial situation where they can afford one. The NSSA is worried about the number of members needed to support their organization as currently structured. Self preservation.

The Worlds are a bad example of young shooters participation. No Junior concurrents are available thanks to the wisdom of the NSSA. They are actually trying to discourage younger shooters from participating. The old guys hate getting beat by the kids. The kids will not travel much in the school year anyway.

I will guarantee you one thing, if all we have is a bunch of old men sitting around bitching about the current game and failing to support and encourage growth and just missing the good ole days, it will die. The responses on this forum certainly lean that way. Go work the Junior Worlds! Contribute to your local shoots so they can afford to be well run. Prize money isn't the answer, but well run, supported shoots are. Look at why the successful shoots are successful and try to emulate them.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:08 am 
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drawdc wrote:
I have previously stated the membership in the Porsche Club of America. Heavily weighted towards 50+ year olds. They will be replaced as younger folks move into a financial situation where they can afford one.


Same thing with AARP!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:18 am 
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ShowMe wrote:
drawdc wrote:
I have previously stated the membership in the Porsche Club of America. Heavily weighted towards 50+ year olds. They will be replaced as younger folks move into a financial situation where they can afford one.


Same thing with AARP!!!!


I partly agree, but the main hole in that theory is that there are a LOT of younger shooters out there competing in USPSA and 3 Gun. While Skeet is an expensive game, it’s only marginally more expensive (if it is) than shooting 3 gun competitively.

USPSA Open guns can easily exceed $6-7k without mags these days, and bullets/cases/primer/powder aren’t cheap. A lot of these shooters are also paying $20-$30 every weekend for local matches. Our local monthly match usually hosts 45-65 shooters, and at least 50% are under 40.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:36 pm 
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drawdc wrote:
I will guarantee you one thing, if all we have is a bunch of old men sitting around bitching about the current game and failing to support and encourage growth and just missing the good ole days, it will die.


HAHA, old man? I'm 32, and I'm typically in the youngest 10% of shooters at about every shoot I go to.

We get it, you haven't be around long, and have no idea of how populous the shoots used to be. I haven't been around as long as some even on this thread, but I've seen the game wither in my 14 year career. You also need to open your eyes to the situation beyond TX.

BTW, there are Jr and SubJr @ the World, 27 of them in the 12ga last year.

Going back to 07, 10 years, there were 505 SS and above, 499 below, so almost 50/50 split. 2017 and we're at 75% SS and above. Trust me, it'll get worse.

Simple fact is people are aging out and not being replaced. A majority of that is due to SC, some of it is do to poor payouts relative to current costs (costs are way up over the past decade and a half, payouts are the same or less). When SS and above ages out, NSSA is done.

The ultimate dichotomy of it all is that NSSA (and other org) spent too much time, effort, and $ on the "juniors are our future" bandwagon, while basically ignoring everybody else. The problem is that 99% of the time juniors shoot until someone else stops paying, then they are done, they are NOT an long term income stream for NSSA. If you're lucky maybe they'll come back when they hit 40 or 50. A lot of capital invested on something that MIGHT pay off 2 or 3 decades down the line, which at this point is going to be too late. NRA has finally discovered this and is shifting their outreach funds to different avenues that can have a more meaningful and immediate impact.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:07 pm 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
drawdc wrote:
I will guarantee you one thing, if all we have is a bunch of old men sitting around bitching about the current game and failing to support and encourage growth and just missing the good ole days, it will die.


HAHA, old man? I'm 32, and I'm typically in the youngest 10% of shooters at about every shoot I go to.

We get it, you haven't be around long, and have no idea of how populous the shoots used to be. I haven't been around as long as some even on this thread, but I've seen the game wither in my 14 year career. You also need to open your eyes to the situation beyond TX.

BTW, there are Jr and SubJr @ the World, 27 of them in the 12ga last year.

Going back to 07, 10 years, there were 505 SS and above, 499 below, so almost 50/50 split. 2017 and we're at 75% SS and above. Trust me, it'll get worse.

Simple fact is people are aging out and not being replaced. A majority of that is due to SC, some of it is do to poor payouts relative to current costs (costs are way up over the past decade and a half, payouts are the same or less). When SS and above ages out, NSSA is done.

The ultimate dichotomy of it all is that NSSA (and other org) spent too much time, effort, and $ on the "juniors are our future" bandwagon, while basically ignoring everybody else. The problem is that 99% of the time juniors shoot until someone else stops paying, then they are done, they are NOT an long term income stream for NSSA. If you're lucky maybe they'll come back when they hit 40 or 50. A lot of capital invested on something that MIGHT pay off 2 or 3 decades down the line, which at this point is going to be too late. NRA has finally discovered this and is shifting their outreach funds to different avenues that can have a more meaningful and immediate impact.


You have to admit that most people complaining on here are old. I have also seen that the areas with the worst growth and attendance are in parts of the country with the least economic growth and success. Frankly, if skeet dies it won't be my family's fault or my part of the country. My son is a hell of a sporting clays shooter, too. He prefers skeet, but he will shoot whatever is available to him. Your sport, your loss. Old or not, I haven't heard any of you come up with a positive suggestion. Maybe the game just sucks and needs to die.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:48 pm 
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The game doesn't suck - it just didn't adapt/evolve in any measurable way. Sporting clays is constantly evolving, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, but one thing has been consistent in that the targets/ presentations have become more challenging. It was/is able to offer a more varied, flexible dynamic experience at a faster pace that consumes less time. I have been quoted as saying "Skeet didn't change - the world did!" but it doesn't make any difference.

There have been many suggestions on how to change the game to make it more appealing - everything from "more money in class" to a change in the course of fire to include more doubles and minimize shoot-offs, to an inclusion of an "open class" to accommodate more shooters that have no interest in sub-gauge events. I never personally cared about the money - I won my class in the last three shoots and my take was around $35.00. The guy who won the next class up won $5.00 more, a bag of dog food, and a jar of home made jelly. He didn't have a dog, but he mentioned the jelly was good. The fact that was had to spend an extra hour or two for him to shoot off for that was absurd. Prize money is a non-factor for me, as I think it is for most skeet shooters these days. Changes I've thought about:

- Course of fire change to Olympic. Not the targets, speeds or mounts, just the course of fire with more doubles everywhere. It's blasphemy to even mention it, but it would speed up the game, eliminate pretenders early on, and cut way back on shoot-offs. IMO if you can't reliably break station 4 doubles, you have no business being in a shoot-off.

- Shoot-offs only for HOA. Class determined by long run. I find it hilarious that you've got two guys in D-class trying to prove that one '83' was better than another '83'.

- Open class at every event. Shoot what you want - they all count as registered targets in that gun, and you compete only against those in "open class" regardless of what you or they shoot. For many (most?) people, tube sets are expensive and reloading is a PITA. I enjoy reloading, but I'm in the minority.

- Better time management at events. No one should ever show up at an event at 9:00 AM, shoot the first gun at 9:30, and then wait until 2:00 to shoot the second gun. Then wait around for doubles and roll home at 10:00 PM. I just can't make that work, and very few people under 50 with kids and lives can these days.

- I have no idea how to do it, but it would be nice to find a way to emphasize smaller, local shoots and deemphasize the big shoots. Better shooters naturally gravitate towards the big shoots and more points. I know a number of guys that plan their entire year around 5 or 6 shoots and won't even sniff at anything else, even if its in their own back yard. You could potentially change this behavior by forcing shooters to accumulate a certain numbers of shoots/points in their zone/region/area and not penalize them with the current points system. Actually reward them.

Again - lots of ideas. These are just some of the things I think about. There are many others with different ideas/opinions. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in real change at the NSSA.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:32 pm 
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wasthestumper wrote:
The game doesn't suck - it just didn't adapt/evolve in any measurable way. Sporting clays is constantly evolving, sometimes for the better and sometimes for the worse, but one thing has been consistent in that the targets/ presentations have become more challenging. It was/is able to offer a more varied, flexible dynamic experience at a faster pace that consumes less time. I have been quoted as saying "Skeet didn't change - the world did!" but it doesn't make any difference.

There have been many suggestions on how to change the game to make it more appealing - everything from "more money in class" to a change in the course of fire to include more doubles and minimize shoot-offs, to an inclusion of an "open class" to accommodate more shooters that have no interest in sub-gauge events. I never personally cared about the money - I won my class in the last three shoots and my take was around $35.00. The guy who won the next class up won $5.00 more, a bag of dog food, and a jar of home made jelly. He didn't have a dog, but he mentioned the jelly was good. The fact that was had to spend an extra hour or two for him to shoot off for that was absurd. Prize money is a non-factor for me, as I think it is for most skeet shooters these days. Changes I've thought about:

- Course of fire change to Olympic. Not the targets, speeds or mounts, just the course of fire with more doubles everywhere. It's blasphemy to even mention it, but it would speed up the game, eliminate pretenders early on, and cut way back on shoot-offs. IMO if you can't reliably break station 4 doubles, you have no business being in a shoot-off.

- Shoot-offs only for HOA. Class determined by long run. I find it hilarious that you've got two guys in D-class trying to prove that one '83' was better than another '83'.

- Open class at every event. Shoot what you want - they all count as registered targets in that gun, and you compete only against those in "open class" regardless of what you or they shoot. For many (most?) people, tube sets are expensive and reloading is a PITA. I enjoy reloading, but I'm in the minority.

- Better time management at events. No one should ever show up at an event at 9:00 AM, shoot the first gun at 9:30, and then wait until 2:00 to shoot the second gun. Then wait around for doubles and roll home at 10:00 PM. I just can't make that work, and very few people under 50 with kids and lives can these days.

- I have no idea how to do it, but it would be nice to find a way to emphasize smaller, local shoots and deemphasize the big shoots. Better shooters naturally gravitate towards the big shoots and more points. I know a number of guys that plan their entire year around 5 or 6 shoots and won't even sniff at anything else, even if its in their own back yard. You could potentially change this behavior by forcing shooters to accumulate a certain numbers of shoots/points in their zone/region/area and not penalize them with the current points system. Actually reward them.

Again - lots of ideas. These are just some of the things I think about. There are many others with different ideas/opinions. There just doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in real change at the NSSA.



Pretty good stuff.

I honestly think International format makes much more sense. I've tried to explain multiple shooters running 100s to non competitive friends of mine, and the reaction is ALWAYS.. "None of those guys missed?? It needs to be harder then!"
I enjoy straights being obtainable, but to a lot of people it doesn't make sense, and isn't appealing.

Sub gauges are a huge detriment realistically. Most younger guys with full times jobs (I'm 32) have no desire to invest their money and time into reloading 3 gauges. I've had friends seem interested in the sport, and then immediately be turned off when I tell them the tale of tubes and reloading.

Mainly though, the sport just isn't "sexy". There are no fancy golf carts, the target presentations are repetitive and boring, and it LOOKS too easy sometimes. It takes a certain type of person to take Skeet seriously, and I feel like there are less and less of those types of people. If you try and watch through the eyes of someone with no experience, videos of the top guys shooting Sporting Clays sure look cooler and more dynamic than watching Bender and Schmidt poke the same pair of doubles out of the sky box after box.

Another way to look at it is.... The general population of shotgun shooters might have preferred or gravitated to Sporting Clays all along... There just weren't NEAR as many courses available in past years/decades. Now that courses are more available to more shooters, that's where they are going.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:21 pm 
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Its difficult for me to even find skeet near me. Unfortunate since that's the only clays game I've competed in a league. Trap and Sporting clays courses are everywhere.


Last edited by MNGunner on Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:07 am 
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Skeet_Man wrote:
...BTW, there are Jr and SubJr @ the World, 27 of them in the 12ga last year.
And yet, the results posted for the World shoot don't report any winners or places in the SJ and JR concurrents. Why is that? Am I missing something?


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:49 am 
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drawdc wrote:
I haven't heard any of you come up with a positive suggestion.


And your positive suggestions are what?


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:12 am 
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oldskeetshooter wrote:
After a 15+ year layoff, from registered skeet, I decided to shoot a local smaller shoot. Yes, skeet is in a downward spiral. Only those who have shot 30 years, or so, would understand what I mean. Don't misunderstand me, there are a few "Skeet Shooters" that are up and coming, but they are few and far between...

Has Skeet died, no it has not, but the Skeet culture is in a downward spiral. 25 years ago, my state shoot had 200+ shooters, now maybe 75.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 7:58 am 
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RKA5 wrote:
Skeet_Man wrote:
...BTW, there are Jr and SubJr @ the World, 27 of them in the 12ga last year.
And yet, the results posted for the World shoot don't report any winners or places in the SJ and JR concurrents. Why is that? Am I missing something?


They don't recognize the SJ and JR concurrents at the Minis or Worlds. Go figure. I would bet half those kids are in contention for Open or Ladies All-American teams. My son likes to shoot the Minis but they are actually worthless for him.

Several people on this forum think supporting junior skeet shooters is also worthless. I disagree.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:18 am 
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drawdc wrote:
Several people on this forum think supporting junior skeet shooters is also worthless. I disagree.


Why support junior skeet shooters more or less than any other segment?

Why not more support for the 'married with children' shooters? Many of them are already NSSA members, with a classification, guns, and reloaders, but forced to curtail registered skeet because of the demands of being married with children.


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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:08 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Returning To the Sport After 10 Year.... Has Skeet Died?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:21 pm 
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Kids are fickle things. I have 3 boys and 1 girl. You never know which way they are going to go - it changes daily at times. The only real money they have to spend is mine, and once they get to college it becomes hard for them to really focus on any one thing beyond education, girls, and beer. Then it's chasing a career, girls and beer, and eventually they settle down, get married, and wonder where the hell all the girls and beer went. But to me, that's when you need to go back after them the hardest. Some kids may get the bug early and pursue it long term, but most guy get settled into life, get a decent job, and are looking for a hobby/activity/sport/escape now that their lives are so complicated. They have some money, stability, and need to get out of the house on occasion. If they've experienced shooting sports in their youth, there's a good chance they might gravitate back towards them, but not if it's so time consuming and convoluted that it interferes with everything else. They actually have their own money to spend - maybe not as much as they would like - but what kills them is time. Well, that and a sense of futility - anything that you do with 92% efficiency but wind up uncompetitive can be a tough sell.



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