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 Post subject: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:10 am 
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Hey Randy,
I saw the rather 'spirited' conversation in the V3 vs Super Vinci thread, and it did bring up a question. I have a synthetic V3 and love it. After looking at the picture of the new gas system in the walnut version, however, I'm having a difficult time figuring out how it works. If the long vent tube is truly just an open tube, how does enough pressure build in the gas cylinder to operate the pistons? The pop-off valve in the original is self-explanatory, but an open tube? The only thing I can think of is the end of the gas cylinder must have a smaller orifice leading into the tube, thus allowing enough pressure to build before the excess gas can escape. Do you happen to have any pictures or diagrams of the new system you can share with us?



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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:31 am 
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I just realized this is a simple jet engine. The acceleration of the mass of gas out the front would have the ol’ “equal but opposite reaction” on the piston. Clever...

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:13 am 
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Bug Doc wrote:
I just realized this is a simple jet engine. The acceleration of the mass of gas out the front would have the ol’ “equal but opposite reaction” on the piston. Clever...


Whatever it is Doc, my walnut V3 works great ! All I can say ( and really all I care about ).


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:19 pm 
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There is a fairly lengthy article about the history of the V3 on my website, titled "On the Remington V3" that covers most things V3. One test is worth a thousand guesses.

The dual gas piston in a shotgun, in a modern sense, dates back to 1998, with the development of the Benelli M4, which in 1999 became the M1014 Joint Services Combat Shotgun. The Benelli ARGO system (“Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated”) lacks both V3 exhaust systems, and further lacks the Remington Versa-Port system. Yet, it has worked for 20 years, though not as well as the V3. Benelli had a lapse where the 2 port barrels were quickly dumped for civilian sales in favor of the 4 port barrels, Benelli saying that the “M4 features a modified gas system designed to function with light tactical loads." It was a disaster, and Benelli sheepishly went back to the 2 port barrels.

Though called "Auto-Regulating" by Benelli, it is hardly perfectly that, the reason for the 4 port barrel fiasco. Yet, the M4 still is the Joint Services Combat Shotgun today, and no one can say that it doesn't work. $2000 peep-sighted short barreled riot guns are no one's idea of a good pheasant, duck, or clays platform.

Automatically, just as a matter of course, the Versa-Port system is more consistent across the spectrum of load intensity.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:57 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
There is a fairly lengthy article about the history of the V3 on my website, titled "On the Remington V3" that covers most things V3. One test is worth a thousand guesses.

The dual gas piston in a shotgun, in a modern sense, dates back to 1998, with the development of the Benelli M4, which in 1999 became the M1014 Joint Services Combat Shotgun. The Benelli ARGO system (“Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated”) lacks both V3 exhaust systems, and further lacks the Remington Versa-Port system. Yet, it has worked for 20 years, though not as well as the V3. Benelli had a lapse where the 2 port barrels were quickly dumped for civilian sales in favor of the 4 port barrels, Benelli saying that the “M4 features a modified gas system designed to function with light tactical loads." It was a disaster, and Benelli sheepishly went back to the 2 port barrels.

Though called "Auto-Regulating" by Benelli, it is hardly perfectly that, the reason for the 4 port barrel fiasco. Yet, the M4 still is the Joint Services Combat Shotgun today, and no one can say that it doesn't work. $2000 peep-sighted short barreled riot guns are no one's idea of a good pheasant, duck, or clays platform.

Automatically, just as a matter of course, the Versa-Port system is more consistent across the spectrum of load intensity.


Now Randy, you`re ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN that ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING you`ve stated is ABSOLUTELY ACCURATE ! ?? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:19 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
There is a fairly lengthy article about the history of the V3 on my website, titled "On the Remington V3" that covers most things V3. One test is worth a thousand guesses.

The dual gas piston in a shotgun, in a modern sense, dates back to 1998, with the development of the Benelli M4, which in 1999 became the M1014 Joint Services Combat Shotgun. The Benelli ARGO system (“Auto-Regulating Gas-Operated”) lacks both V3 exhaust systems, and further lacks the Remington Versa-Port system. Yet, it has worked for 20 years, though not as well as the V3. Benelli had a lapse where the 2 port barrels were quickly dumped for civilian sales in favor of the 4 port barrels, Benelli saying that the “M4 features a modified gas system designed to function with light tactical loads." It was a disaster, and Benelli sheepishly went back to the 2 port barrels.

Though called "Auto-Regulating" by Benelli, it is hardly perfectly that, the reason for the 4 port barrel fiasco. Yet, the M4 still is the Joint Services Combat Shotgun today, and no one can say that it doesn't work. $2000 peep-sighted short barreled riot guns are no one's idea of a good pheasant, duck, or clays platform.

Automatically, just as a matter of course, the Versa-Port system is more consistent across the spectrum of load intensity.


Yup, I read your article. The ARGO system uses a pop-off valve much like the synthetic V3. However, I was more intrigued by the workings of the new system with the open tube in lieu of the pop-off valve (or a simple plug like the VersaMax). I haven't seen one in person and was hoping for some insight on the physics behind it.

Assuming it does work on the 'jet engine' principle, fine-tuning the length and diameter of the exhaust tube would be akin to the use of adjustable nozzles on fighter jets, with the correct nozzle setting producing maximum thrust. Kinda makes sense, but I'm still not sure how that would react to different pressure regimes produced by the wide variety of available shotshell loads. I'm not doubting that it works - just would like to understand how.

If you haven't had this conversation with Remington engineers, there's no shame in admitting as much. No need to repeat the "The V3 is the best ever" mantra again - I'm already a believer. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:26 pm 
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Bug Doc wrote:
If you haven't had this conversation with Remington engineers


I have discussed this at length with Remington engineers, product managers, and senior management in person at Ilion, NY, in Huntsville, Alabama, and elsewhere. The V3 walnut was delayed for over a year due to forearm cracking, the resultant re-engineering, and endurance testing. The initial goal was simply to eliminate forearm cracking.

As testing continued, it became apparent that the exhaust tube array solved the walnut forearm issue. It was further found that it was a more progressive system than the original as well, is easier to service, keeps the magazine tube a bit cleaner, and so forth.

I've not experienced the 'blow-back' thing that some have reported. Regardless of the scarcity of the problem or not, no one has ever reported any blow-back with the exhaust tube system that I have ever heard of. For those that have no blow-back issues with synthetic V3's, it may mean little. For those that do, however, it means a great deal.

It is about improving the breed, for everyone. Over the last several years, I have heard two basic categories of complaints: 1) shims wanted and 2) some blowback. I don't need shims and I've never experienced any blowback. It is hardly about me, it is about trying to make the V3 acceptable to most anyone.

I'd love to see it in 20 gauge. I'd speculate that, in 20 gauge, it could be a 6-1/2 lb. gun or thereabouts, that would shoot like a pillow.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:12 pm 
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BD,

The take away is when Remington scalped the Benelli Argo system (once the patent expired) with the VM and subsequently the V3, they employed the system in synthetic furniture shotguns as Benelli. The wood versions (per RW) weren't working out hence, the gas system design change. However, there are still reports of forearm breakage coming from consumers. As the number of wood furniture V3's in service versus the number of breakage events is unknown at present, it's anyone's guess as to the actual failure rate. However, until it has been much more clearly established the wood forearm breakage issue is completely resolved, do you really want to be the next guinea pig?

Hope you still have the 1100's that you were slaying mallards with while using the TSS.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 12:13 am 
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mea culpa wrote:
BD,

The take away is when Remington scalped the Benelli Argo system (once the patent expired) with the VM and subsequently the V3, they employed the system in synthetic furniture shotguns as Benelli. The wood versions (per RW) weren't working out hence, the gas system design change. However, there are still reports of forearm breakage coming from consumers. As the number of wood furniture V3's in service versus the number of breakage events is unknown at present, it's anyone's guess as to the actual failure rate. However, until it has been much more clearly established the wood forearm breakage issue is completely resolved, do you really want to be the next guinea pig?

Hope you still have the 1100's that you were slaying mallards with while using the TSS.

Yup, still have a closet full of lemon-hunerts. Been using the V3 for almost everything lately, though. Wish I had a bunch of TSS - I’m down to my last couple hundred rounds. Used only on special occasions now.

Not too concerned about the walnut version - was just interested in the physics behind the tube system. Still pretty interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:09 am 
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Bug Doc wrote:
Hey Randy,

If the long vent tube is truly just an open tube, how does enough pressure build in the gas cylinder to operate the pistons? The pop-off valve in the original is self-explanatory, but an open tube?


An open tube isn't new: it is what is used in the original Remington patent US8065949B1, filed for patent on May 24, 2007, claiming priority over the Benelli patent filed a year earlier. On November 29, 2011, it was awarded to Remington.

The Versa Port system is the intellectual property of Remington, it has been for many years, and has nothing at all to do with any mythical expired patents of Benelli.

Image

Dismissing a tube as being a "straw" or "just" an open tube isn't quite right. What is pipe? What is braided high-pressure hose? Gas lines? What is a shotgun barrel, other than a tube?

There are standard calculations for the basics of flow rate of compressible gas, based on the diameter of the hose/ pipe / tube / straw / barrel, the pressure, and the friction of the gas. There is no reason to overthink it.

There are countless variables: Remington can change the number and diameter of the Versa-Port barrel ports as they wish, the diameter of the dual gas pistons, and on and on. It has been done constantly with more common gas-operated actions: one port in the barrel, or two, different gas piston diameters, and so it goes.

Image

My MR-1 is an "Argo" action as well: just one gas piston.

Image

It is hard to mistake the V3 for an MR-1.


Image

Image

The V3 has gas ports in the chamber, the M4 does not. That's all the difference in the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:02 am 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
Bug Doc wrote:
Hey Randy,

If the long vent tube is truly just an open tube, how does enough pressure build in the gas cylinder to operate the pistons? The pop-off valve in the original is self-explanatory, but an open tube?


An open tube isn't new: it is what is used in the original Remington patent US8065949B1, filed for patent on May 24, 2007, claiming priority over the Benelli patent filed a year earlier. On November 29, 2011, it was awarded to Remington.


I think we're referring to different tubes here. I understand how the Versa Port system works. I'm actually referring to the 'exhaust tube array' you mentioned in your post above.

The original Remington patent you cite shows the end of the gas cylinder being closed by a plug they refer to as the "gas diverter and cap [item 20]". Once the piston has reached the end of its stroke, a "gas bleed slot [item 120]" is exposed and the used gas is exhausted. This is consistent with how the VersaMax is constructed. However, based on your photograph of the gas system of the walnut V3, it appears the solid 'gas diverter and cap' have been replaced with an open exhaust tube. Also, I do not see any 'gas bleed slots' on the new system. Am I correct in assuming that the exhaust tubes are open to the gas cylinder? If so, then this system works more like a jet engine than an enclosed piston engine. That's the part I find fascinating. The elimination of gas bleed slots in the side of the cylinder would alleviate the blow-back people are reporting. It would also reduce the number of moving parts (i.e. the pop-off valve in the synth V3) that can wear out or get gummed up. It's as elegant a solution as the original Versa Port idea itself. :D

I may have to go down to the local store and examine one in person.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Ranxdy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:36 am 
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Doc,
As an example, over on the DHC site there's one thread with six different shooters complaining of the debris blowback with their synthetic V3's. The 'fuge has several such reports as well along with other sites. That's compelling evidence this issue isn't an isolated problem.

Point being is Remington surely was aware of these issues and in remedying the forearm breakage problem on the walnut furniture models by radically changing the gas system functions, could have done the same for the synthetic versions. Perhaps, with the company being in the throes of bankruptcy they had other things to worry about?

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/rem ... ew.566313/

Also, this article suggests the walnut V3 tends to shoot low and off (shades of SBE!) and was wondering your experiences with the synthetic.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:32 am 
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Bug Doc wrote:
The elimination of gas bleed slots in the side of the cylinder would alleviate the blow-back people are reporting. It would also reduce the number of moving parts (i.e. the pop-off valve in the synth V3) that can wear out or get gummed up. It's as elegant a solution as the original Versa Port idea itself.


Image

Ta-da!

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:37 am 
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That would appear to have also solved the debris blowback problem on the synthetic models as well.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Ranxdy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:25 am 
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mea culpa wrote:
Doc,
As an example, over on the DHC site there's one thread with six different shooters complaining of the debris blowback with their synthetic V3's. The 'fuge has several such reports as well along with other sites. That's compelling evidence this issue isn't an isolated problem.

Point being is Remington surely was aware of these issues and in remedying the forearm breakage problem on the walnut furniture models by radically changing the gas system functions, could have done the same for the synthetic versions. Perhaps, with the company being in the throes of bankruptcy they had other things to worry about?

http://www.trapshooters.com/threads/rem ... ew.566313/

Also, this article suggests the walnut V3 tends to shoot low and off (shades of SBE!) and was wondering your experiences with the synthetic.



Well, I know my V3 walnut shoots a little low and left at 40 yards with 3" turkey loads through a .660 Primos Jellyhead. Does that count? Otherwise, can`t say that I`ve formally patterned it with target/game loads, but if I do my part, it seems to shoot just fine on the skeet range. That`s more important to me since skeet and dove will be its uses and I`ve got a special purpose 870 for turkey anyway.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:55 pm 
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There never was a V3 walnut forearm breakage problem. Who here has broken one? Anyone?

All of the changes inclusive of the gas block and exhaust tubes were implemented prior to V3 walnut being released.

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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:06 pm 
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RandyWakeman wrote:
There never was a V3 walnut forearm breakage problem. Who here has broken one? Anyone?

All of the changes inclusive of the gas block and exhaust tubes were implemented prior to V3 walnut being released.


Not mine!


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Aa member of this forum (Joe W.) had his break in multiple places @<200 rounds through it. Another poster (duck hunting website) had his do the same as well. These guys have no apparent reason to be untruthful as breakage notwithstanding, they really like the shotguns. It was apparently an issue (initially) as Remington had to change the gas system because of it. I'm wondering if there may be other factors such as possible heat buildup stressing the wood in situations where multiple rounds (skeet) are fired in short order. Remington may be aware of this or something else that's possibly causal and are addressing the situation.


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:24 pm 
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mea culpa wrote:
Aa member of this forum (Joe W.) had his break in multiple places @<200 rounds through it. Another poster (duck hunting website) had his do the same as well. These guys have no apparent reason to be untruthful as breakage notwithstanding, they really like the shotguns. It was apparently an issue (initially) as Remington had to change the gas system because of it. I'm wondering if there may be other factors such as possible heat buildup stressing the wood in situations where multiple rounds (skeet) are fired in short order. Remington may be aware of this or something else that's possibly causal and are addressing the situation.


How about a couple of bad pieces of wood? As Randy`s stated multiple times, There were indeed changes made to the gas exhaust system in the walnut due to cracking BEFORE the walnut was released. As for heat build up being a cause for cracking in guns in use, the walnuts have been out for a while now and there`s been ample opportunity for many to be in high volume shooting situations. Has this been a big problem? I think that we probably would have heard, don`t you think?


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 Post subject: Re: Question for Randy on Walnut V3
PostPosted: Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:01 pm 
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How many is too many?




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