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 Post subject: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:34 am 
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My old buddy Jack used to opine, after he was properly lubricated, that the cruise ships of fifteen or twenty years ago had grown so large and top heavy, that someday one of them was going to capsize and kill more souls than died on the Titanic.

Now, the fifteen largest cruise ships in the world range from a low of over 150,000 tons, to the latest leviathans of over 220,000 tons, and carry from four thousand to six thousand passengers.

https://www.cnn.com/travel/article/worl ... index.html

Every one of those huge ships, must draw less than twenty five feet of water to make the various ports they visit.

I realize naval architects make those ships meet current standards for seaworthiness.

But I agree with my dead buddy Jack, that someday there will be a rouge wave, a sudden storm, or a collision, that will set in motion a cascade of events that will cause one to turn turtle and kill a bunch of folks.

What's your opinion, of the safety of these big floating pleasure palaces?



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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 9:47 am 
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I’m less concerned about the engineering skills of the ship builders as I am about the sophistication, social skills and emotional intelligence of the passengers. I’ve never been on a cruise but a couple colleagues have recently. They regretted it, and described it as “like being trapped inside a Walmart for four days.”

I’d rather spend the money flying to New York or London, seeing some museums or a show, staying at a hotel that’s expensive enough to keep out the Hoi Polloi, and eating a proper dinner out at a place where anyone under 30, or not in a jacket and tie, would be uncomfortable if not denied entry outright.

If I’m going someplace tropical I’ll make my own travel arrangements and it will involve some chartered fishing time, not being herded onto a ship with a bunch of obese mouth breathers.

I might make an exception for something like Cunard’s Queen Elizabeth someday. An Atlantic crossing would be neat to do once in a lifetime.


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:25 am 
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HenryVac wrote:
I’m less concerned about the engineering skills of the ship builders as I am about the sophistication, social skills and emotional intelligence of the passengers. I’ve never been on a cruise but a couple colleagues have recently. They regretted it, and described it as “like being trapped inside a Walmart for four days.”

I’d rather spend the money flying to New York or London, seeing some museums or a show, staying at a hotel that’s expensive enough to keep out the Hoi Polloi, and eating a proper dinner out at a place where anyone under 30, or not in a jacket and tie, would be uncomfortable if not denied entry outright.

If I’m going someplace tropical I’ll make my own travel arrangements and it will involve some chartered fishing time, not being herded onto a ship with a bunch of obese mouth breathers.

I might make an exception for something like Cunard’s Queen Elizabeth someday. An Atlantic crossing would be neat to do once in a lifetime.


The Queen Elizabeth is not a true ocean liner, but a cruise ship with a 26 foot draft, and high free board, adapted for transatlantic service with a bit of plating on her bow. She has 16 decks, displaces 92,000 tons, and may God Save the Queen Elizabeth if she's ever in a collision like the Andrea Dora and Stockholm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_Queen_Elizabeth


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SS_Andrea_Doria

The Doria did finally capsize and sink, but only ten hours later, after other ships and helicopters were able to come and take off nearly everybody not initially killed in the collision.



Jack used to have a bit of thinking fluid, and say that if a Stockholm ever hits a new cruise ship, they won't have long before the cruise ship heels all the way over, and takes most of the passengers down with her.

Jack died in his sleep when he was nearly 90, and didn't live to see his prediction come true, that cruise ships were built with too shallow drafts and too many decks, and someday one would capsize and be the worst peacetime maritime disaster.

Let's hope we never live to see it.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 2:46 pm 
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I know a few guys like that too. It would be a lot less colorful world without them, I’ll admit.


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:13 pm 
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I have been on ~15 cruises; always get a balcony room and prefer the smaller ships with older crowds like Holland America. You will never catch me on one with 6000+ passengers and about as many crew. And yes, several have been severely damaged by rogue waves - just the chance you take; no different than crossing the street as to the odds.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Jack was a sheer genius, and capable of truly original thought.

He invented several gadgets, and made a good living from selling the wire marker balls that we see on the wires at the end of every airport runway, over every navigable river, and at all the heliports, and other places where pilots cannot see the wires, and there’s a good chance they’ll be low enough to hit one.

But his life’s pleasures were cigars, booze, women, big cars, all boats and ships, all airplanes, history, and philosophy.

Jack used to say that it flies, floats, or fxxxs a man is better off renting than owning, but he was unable to follow that sage wisdom, himself.

He could rattle off the names of all the great maritime disasters, including the capsizing of great ships, from the Mary Rose and HMS Captain, to the SS Eastland in Chicago in 1915.

https://www.historicmysteries.com/sinking-mary-rose/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Captain_(1869)

http://www.eastlanddisaster.org/history/what-happened

When a ship heels over so far, they keep on going over.

And every ship’s architect has always thought, their ship would not capsize.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:17 pm 
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oneounceload wrote:
I have been on ~15 cruises; always get a balcony room and prefer the smaller ships with older crowds like Holland America. You will never catch me on one with 6000+ passengers and about as many crew. And yes, several have been severely damaged by rogue waves - just the chance you take; no different than crossing the street as to the odds.

Agreed, We prefer the smaller ships mostly do to the service. Mid Ship and Balcony. You learn not to cruise during spring break but our Christmas cruise was beautiful. We were closing in on 15 cruises when the wife was diagnosed with cancer. Been off the water for 5 years. Hoping next year we can celebrate our 25th at sea. Still have to get some things taken care of.

You have to have an open mind and want to enjoy.


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:55 pm 
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No, they have not.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:32 pm 
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SuperXOne wrote:
Jack was a sheer genius, and capable of truly original thought.

He invented several gadgets, and made a good living from selling the wire marker balls that we see on the wires at the end of every airport runway, over every navigable river, and at all the heliports, and other places where pilots cannot see the wires, and there’s a good chance they’ll be low enough to hit one.

Those things used to be advertised in Trade-A-Plane with the slogan “Your Balls Saved My Life!


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:41 pm 
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I've been on several and generally enjoy the idea of a cruise.

Went on a big ship my last cruise, it carried 5,700 counting crew. Not the best experience - it wasn't the size of the ship or crowd, it was the people. It did feel like Walmart. Rap and "thud" crap music at the pools, and just crowded. That was a Norwegian cruise, the Epic.

Best was what seemed like an old folks cruise, on Princess. More civilized crowd and music I enjoyed.

But yes, the bigger the ships get, the bigger the chance of taking out a lot of people when it happens.


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 4:38 am 
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Quote:
What's your opinion, of the safety of these big floating pleasure palaces?
They look wrong.

If something looks wrong it probably is, but these things have been around a long time without any serious incidents related to stability. The proof is in the pudding.

Having said that, you'll never get me on an ocean going cruise ship; I can stand for ninety minutes in a noisy crowd of semi drunks at Villa Park any Saturday afternoon; a week or ten days, not a chance.

We have taken some river cruises in Europe and enjoyed them; smaller boats, not crowded, lots of tours ashore in interesting places. Being moored up for a few days right in the heart of places like Amsterdam, Paris and Strasbourg is delightful.

Eug

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:17 am 
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Hi,

Like many things we design and build in this world, it's all about doing the math. Do it right, no problem. Do it wrong, well bad things can happen.

As far as cruise ships go, they did the math multiple times before commiting money, effort, and time to build one. Don't sweat the hardware, sweat the quality of the crew.............

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Dalee100 wrote:
Hi,

Like many things we design and build in this world, it's all about doing the math. Do it right, no problem. Do it wrong, well bad things can happen.

As far as cruise ships go, they did the math multiple times before commiting money, effort, and time to build one. Don't sweat the hardware, sweat the quality of the crew.............

That right there.

Costa Concordia anyone?
Once again, grind the bottom parts of the boat on some rocks and you'll make a hole,, make a big enough hole, it'll sink. 1/6th of the hull length is a dam big hole.
If the Titanic had rammed the iceberg head on, she'd have floated all the way to New York.

Enlisted crew worked their butts off, officers, and the Captain himself, weren't worth a tinker's dam at leading them.

Didn't help the commo systems basically died with the power systems right at the beginning when her generators flooded.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:42 pm 
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I don’t know if a cruise ship will capsize, but apparently a member of Congress is worried that the island of Guam will tip into the ocean: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f-HCYgZo_og


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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:02 pm 
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Well yea,,, IF we put any more Marines on Guam...................

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:08 pm 
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I don't know about cruise ships, but I have heard of boats with hydraulic stabilizers that could not operate in any kind of sea without them.

But a cruise ship is a floating city, and who wants to be trapped on city with an ocean around it? No thanks, they probably don't even have skeet, much less sporting clays. :P

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:36 am 
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Hyd. 'stabilizers' don't make a properly designed ship stable, their non-operation will not make a ship un-stable.

They really ought to be called Dampers, not 'stabilizers', because what they do is damp (reduce) roll.

Their sole purpose it so make the ride smoother, so as to not make landlubbers seasick.

http://someinterestingfacts.net/how-do- ... zers-work/

Oddly... for another sunken historical reference,,,, The Titanic had Bilge Keels, did the same thing, combated roll motions.

If Hyd. Stabilizers aren't working, the ship will simply roll back and forth more than if they are working, it won't roll over any quicker.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 7:46 am 
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OldStufferA5#1911 wrote:
Hyd. 'stabilizers' don't make a properly designed ship stable, their non-operation will not make a ship un-stable.
..........

If Hyd. Stabilizers aren't working, the ship will simply roll back and forth more than if they are working, it won't roll over any quicker.


Ftom what i have read - Roll time is a critical component of seaworthyness. The reason trawlers converted to cruisers often have a few yards of concrete dumped in the bilge is to slow roll time. Too short a roll time will jerk the crew off their feet. Too long a roll time, and the hull might not recover from the roll.

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 Post subject: Re: Have cruise ships grown too big for safety?
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 9:25 am 
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The thing is, one of the major components of "roll time" is Inertia, a really big boat just won't roll quickly, especially not from "normal" waves, because the wave only has a finite amount of energy yo put against the hull.

A 4' wave rolls my wife's 25-foot cuddy quite hard, but it doesn't roll very far.

The same wave rolls my 20' jetboat even harder, and COULD actually swamp it due to lack of freeboard.

1 4' wave means nothing to a 700 foot 100,000 ton ship. Wind Ripple.


If mere size made a ship somehow "un-seaworthy" then the Gerald Ford is right up there.
How Top Heavy is that steel flight deck anyhow?

555 ton tower perched way off to one edge, hanging off past the hull.

There are ships out there plying the oceans (ones the US Navy hasn't played Bumper Boats with,,, yet) that are twice the size, and several times the displacement of a big Cruise Ship.

These behemoths sink all the time,,, right?
No, they don't.



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