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 Post subject: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 3:18 pm 
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The club I shoot at most often has a fantastic 5 stand course that I'm finally getting the hang of.

I use either a 20 g. AL 391 or 12 g. Xtrema each time and tend to use IC for my choke.

There are a few really long distance shots, notably one where the bird launches straight up from across the field and seems to hang there. I've never hit that bird!

Others that habitually make that shot (in addition to being better than I currently am) either quickly add a tighter choke or do it with an LM or M that they have in their second barrel should they be o/u shooters. It chatting with some of the seasoned shooters they tell me that they really prefer to go with more restriction on those longer shots than IC or skeet.

Does this sound about right? Should I perhaps just use LM or M for the entire course so I have denser patterns for those longer shots- or do others of you out there with single barrel guns bother changing chokes during a round of 5 stand?

I'm sure I'm splitting hairs, and I fully recognize that more practice is what really matters, but I'm curious to hear some input from a few veteran shooters...

Brent


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 5:09 pm 
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I've never seen anybody try to change chokes during a round of 5-stand. It doesn't seem to be feasible. There usually isn't enough time. I'm not even sure it is allowed by NSCA rules. If it is allowed, it shouldn't be, because it would slow down the shooting.

Besides, 5-stand moves so fast you need to be paying attention to the targets and which ones you are going to get next. Changing chokes would take so much of your time and attention that you would get confused about what targets are coming when, and which one to take first on a double. I change chokes on the SC course, but I would never try to do it on a 5-stand.

I use the choke that is best suited to the longest target on the 5-stand. I'd rather have too much choke than not enough.

BOTOH, it is a rare 5-stand that you can't shoot with IC chokes if you use 1 1/8 oz of #8 shot. I'd carry a few #7.5 shells for rabbits, but not change chokes.

That long target "where the bird launches straight up from across the field and seems to hang there" would be called a "teal". In many cases, you are shooting at the underside of the target, and standard targets are easier to break when hit on the bottom than when hit on the top or side. Therefore, IC choke and #8 shot is usually enough, even though they may seem a long way off.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 6:26 pm 
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If you are shooting by the rules then changing chokes after the round starts is not allowed.
2005 Official Rules and Regulations for Sporting Clays, NSCA 5-Stand, F.I.T.A.S.C and Compak
Page 54 #5. No chokes may be changed after the round has begun. Failure to comply will result in loss of all targets atttempted (in that round) after choke change.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:10 pm 
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It's a matter of choice and of course depends on the particular 5-stand course as to which chokes are best. If I had to choose chokes for 5-stand without seeing the targets in advance, I'd probably choose LM and Mod. If I could have only one choke, it would probably be LM. On a tougher course, I'll use LM and IM. That IM will reach out and "touch" those long targets. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:38 pm 
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We need a tad more information, like -

what is the distance of the target,
what is it - full size, or a mini, Battue even?
what is the attitude of the target - edge on or full face or all belly?

Choke choice is, in my opinion more based on the attitude of the clay than the distance to the target. an edge on close target needs a tighter choke whereas a full face clay at 60 yards will break with an IC.

Check the distance as accurately as possible, I had a discussion today with someone who thought a clay was 30 yards away and yet there was an appreciable time gap between 'bang' and 'break' :?

Roger

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 7:52 pm 
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Thanks everyone.

I clearly have a bit to learn yet as I make the transfer from years of IPSC and IDPA to what I'm finding to be more family friendly clays games...

I've wanted to pick up a LM for my 20g. and now I've got a reason.

Brent


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2005 8:18 pm 
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Brent wrote:

I've wanted to pick up a LM for my 20g. and now I've got a reason.

Brent


If you have a mod, use it, if the LM makes any score difference between it and the Mod------IMO it's in your head, not enough difference to justify buying the choke over buying that many bullets and learn how to break them.

If you have targets that are 40 yards and going away, an I/M or Full is all I would use.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 12:01 pm 
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If you have a IC there is just not enough difference to buy a LM, you wont gain much by going 5 thou tighter. I would go with M or I/M as your next choke.

Regards, Azam.


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 2:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 6:30 pm 
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I usually use a IC in my semi auto and a Cyl / Mod in my O/U for 5 stand. I can and do hit the long ones with the Ic. What shot size are you using? If you are using 9,s and 8's that may be fixed with a few 7.5's for thos elong shots also. You can adjust patterns with shell/ shot combos too not just changing chokes.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 9:27 pm 
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I've been trying to hit that bird when it "hangs" in the air- I'll try leading it on the rise. Thanks for the advice.

As for carrying a different shot size...I'm amazed I didn't think of that. I'm often amazed at what I don't think of, now that I think about it...


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2005 11:31 pm 
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I have a dumb question, I have shot sporting clays for several years now, but I have only shot 5 stand at my local course so I didnt know if each course is diff. My question is are 5 stand setups should they all be similar set up?


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:24 am 
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Typicaly the only thing similar in five stand is the fact that there are 5 stands! Other than that, it's whatever the target setters feel like doing with the terain and traps available. You just never know what there will be, where it will be coming from, what size rocks or how many traps. Only given is the five stations! :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 1:57 am 
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Brent wrote:
I've been trying to hit that bird when it "hangs" in the air- I'll try leading it on the rise. Thanks for the advice.



Typically, if the target setter did his job, that target isn't just hanging there though it may appear to be. And you may not always be able to shoot it on the way up, if they set a hard/fast crosser too distant to wait as one of the pair.

Though a teal may appear to go straight up, if the machine is at 40 yards and throwing the target away and up, 8 feet of total curve or R to L motion will all but appear straight up but you need to find out which direction it is turning. And it may appear to "hang" there, but it is actually curling at the top, you've got to be on that side, and more to the side than you realize.

If it truely is a straight up teal from station one, when you get on two thru 5 the more lateral it becomes, and the lead at that distance to the side can become huge.

It is important and valuable to learn different ways to shoot a teal just as with every target, it is just as valuable to learn to read them to know exactly what they are doing.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 7:51 am 
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TexasTon wrote:
It is important and valuable to learn different ways to shoot a teal just as with every target, it is just as valuable to learn to read them to know exactly what they are doing.


Amen to that!

There are several techniques for shooting teal, and a good, experienced shooter should be able to use them all, depending on the situation.

For a beginner, the easiest way to shoot a teal is usually to catch it at the top or just as it begins to move down, and shoot a little under it. I have found that I do better if I shoot it just as it starts down, shoot under, and make sure I'm moving the gun down with it, not shooting with a "dead gun".

Shooting it while it is dropping fast, farther down, is a trickier but useful method. It takes a lot of practice, because the amount of lead changes constantly as the target drops and picks up speed.

Shooting a teal going up is harder for some people to do than others. I used to think it was impossible for me, because I have to "wink" my left eye closed due to an eye dominance problem. I thought I would never be able to see lead over the target because the barrel blocks my view of it. Larry Corbett (Rose Hill Farms) showed me that I can actually see the lead over the target even with my left eye shut. The important thing is to use the swing-through method, and don't try to measure the lead. With practice, that has become my favorite way of shooting a teal.

Eventually, as you gain experience and become a better shooter, you will need to learn all methods. You will eventually see situations where you have to use one method and cannot use any other one. With a true pair of teal, you need to shoot one going up and the other just after it peaks. In some pairs, you may need to shoot a closer target first and get the teal as it drops. I have actually seen teal that go up and never come back down, so if you can't shoot it going up you are SOL!

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:08 am 
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Hardest shot for me is the falling target. I think I stop moving the barrel and start spot shooting. My preferred method is the Butt, Belly, Bang or swing through method and that is hard for me on a falling target.

I also made myself learn to shoot with both eyes open and since I have learned to do that I could never go back to shooting with one shut. Really helps me pick up the second bird in a pair.

Also we have a few that seem to just "hang" in the air but in reality that bird is still moving and requires a lot more lead than you would ever think.

As for shot size Brent all I use are 7.5's. Iknow many wil argue the 8 is more versatile but I like to use the KISS method in my reloading therefore I use one shot size.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:16 pm 
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Brent;
I see you're from Mi.
Well. I don;t know where you shoot most of the time, but if you ever shoot Island Lake , Pat has a habit of throwing targets that rise and appear to just sort of hang there for a while before they they start to drop back in the direction they came from. What you don't realize is that they are still sliding in the direction they are rising from although they appear to be turning in the opposite direction.
In other words, they are rising from the left and moving to the right. Then they seem to level off and turn to the left and start droping back to the left, but they are still sliding to the right. Currently one of the 5-stand targets are doing this. It won't be long and this will change for sure.

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2005 11:25 pm 
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dear brent
i used to be in the choke tube race. i will say this loud.

CHOKES ARE IN INCHES. MISSES ARE IN FEET!!!!!!!!

use enough choke. my fixed sporter barrel is Incredibly Modified, and Even More Incredibly Modified. my screwchoke sporter barrel has Light Full and Full screwed in. they come out for cleaning, and when i screw in skeet for, well, skeet! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 8:36 am 
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john wall wrote:
CHOKES ARE IN INCHES. MISSES ARE IN FEET!!!!!!!!


With due respect to my friend John, I'll have to take exception to that statement. While it may be true that some shots are missed by several feet (particularly by beginning shooters), many misses are by only inches.

In fact, most of the HITS are by only inches. Think about it for a minute. If you have a 30" pattern which has an "effective killing diameter" of say 26", then even a perfectly placed shot is only about 13" away from being a miss. And how often do we actually make a "perfectly placed shot"? Actually, most of our hits have even less margin of error than that. That target that you just crushed and feel so good about may well have been only 3" or so from being a miss.

So, can chokes change our pattern size by 3" or more? You betcha! Anytime someone tells me that chokes really don't matter, I just tell them to go to a big skeet or trap shooting tournament and see what the Big Boys are shooting. At skeet tournaments, they shoot Skeet or Cylinder chokes. At trap tournaments, they shoot IM or Full chokes. Why do they use these particular chokes if chokes don't matter? The answer is quite simple. Chokes DO matter. If the experts think it's important to use the right choke, then it's important for the not-so-expert shooter too. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: 5 stand choke question
PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2005 11:06 am 
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dear ulysses
in your analysis of choke patterns, you have just verified what old bubba (myself) said. if you are 16" behind the target, that, my friend , is over one foot. anything over one foot is measured in FEET! (one and one-quarter FEET) duh :lol:

different chokes can change the front of the pattern about 3". :|R

this means that "CHOKES ARE IN INCHES, MISSES ARE IN FEET!!!" :B3

some of the best shooters, trainers and coaches in the world use and recommend fixed choke arms. i have paid dearly for training from some of these folks. :cry:

the gun and accessory companies have done a wonderful job of convincing us that we NEED 20 different chokes. i now find out which choke delivers the best performance and i stay with it. oddly enough, ALL of my fixed choke tournament and hunting barrels deliver superior performance! :w


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