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 Post subject: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:14 am 
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Location: Clemson, SC
Aight this is gonna spark a big debate on personal preference, but i am interested none the least to hear what yall think.

Me, i shoot at a mixed bag on a given day ill see woodies, teal, and the occasional mallard. My gun is a Verona SX405 12 ga.

What i like:
Remington Hevi-Shot 3in. #6's, 1 1/4oz. so nice, but so expensive.
Kent Fasteel 3in. #2's 1 1/4oz. is the ticket for me on a budget.

Anyone tried Kents Tungsten Matrix?
Have never shot Bismuth i here it is comparable??


What i dont like:
Remington Sportsman Steel
Winchester Expert Steel, THIS BIG THUMBS DOWN




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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 7:14 am 
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Location: Western Minnesota
O.k., here we go. This is just the discussion I've been waiting for. (September sure seems like a long way off...)

I just got into waterfowling a couple of springs ago (snow geese out in SD) and I right away started patterning a bunch of 12-gauge rounds including Tungsten-Matrix by Kent, Hevi-Shot, Tungsten-Iron and a variety of steel.

I like Tungsten-Matrix because all the shot is round and even. Tungsten-Iron was good too, but it looks like Federal is phasing that out in favor of a softer material. For density only Hevi-Shot outdoes Tungsten-Matrix, but on my board TM has the more predictable pattern behavior through a variety of chokes.

And, TM kills birds. Dead. No flapping, no running, nothing. Out to 55 yards, maybe more I wouldn't know :) . Exorbitant claims asside, Hevi-Shot is not all that much denser, but it is harder and more dangerous to your gun barrel so they are carefull to package it in thick cups that limit shot capacity. Look it up, TM is available in heavier, faster loads for the same size shells in spite of it being a 10% lighter material than HS.

Bismuth is 10% lighter still and no softer than TM. Wherever I've seen it sold Bismuth is the most expensive of the non-toxics followed by Hevi-Shot, with the TM least expensive ounce-for-ounce. Maybe Federal's new High-Density coming out in the fall will be cheaper.

I'm sure somebody out there will set this rookie strait. I can't wait to see it. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 10:05 am 
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I havn't shot much of the TM but have shot tons of Hevi, steel and bismuth.

Of those three, i like bismuth the best. The best load i found is a 12ga load of 3/4oz #6 bismuth at 1425fps, it is buffered with 10gr of PSB. It is lights out. I have taken just about every species of duck in the central flyway with it. The only one I havn't taken is a mallard.

My second fav is a 7/8oz load of #5 bismuth.

Third is a 470 gr load of steel 3's and a duplexed load of 1's/3's at 492gr. both at 1550.

This year i am trying a load 510gr of bbb's/1's.

All loads are handloads.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 12:28 pm 
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Lots of new non-tox stuff this year. Federal has some shot that is 20% and 35% more dense than lead. Winchester has a load that is 10% more dense than lead which is the same as Hevi Shot (density) but rounder pellets. Kent now has a load of steel at 1,625fps. There are also some other products that are up for review/approval.

I'll try some of this newer stuff this year to see how it patterns. Right now I'm set on using Winchester 1,550fps in 3" and 3 1/2" shells. They have been the best in terms of patterns and kills for the guns/chokes in my group of buddies.
You can buy the most dense, fastest, and most expensive load. If your gun/s don't like it, it's not worth it's weight in crap.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 3:27 pm 
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Hevi-shot is the best right now (it won't be in a few months), but it is very hard shot.

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I can't wait until september 1st.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 13, 2005 11:39 pm 
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Hevi Shot may be the best for you but, not everyone. Me and my buddies tried three different loads in eight different guns with more than twice as many choke tubes. Patterns where at best as good as and often worse than the HV steel loads we tested. Down range energy would have been better but, not worth the 2 1/2-3 times the price for me.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:16 am 
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It is hard to beat steel for the price. If one does their part in getting a choke/load combo that fits well with the appropriate size pellet, it can take birds out as far as one can reasonably hit them. I've used lead, bismuth, tungsten/iron, tungsten/poly, and steel and feel steel is the good enough for the vast majority of waterfowling in the 12 and 10 ga. In the 16 ga and smaller, I like tungsten/polymer followed by bismuth. Hevi-shot is available in the 20 ga and would be my first choice for geese and other heavy duty purposes with a 20. Of course bismuth is preferred in the 28 and 410 as that is the only non-toxic available for these guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 12:21 am 
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Location: Ogden Ut
Maybe this link will answer your question.
It uses a mathamatical formula to show pattern density and pellet energy (ED) necessary for a 95% sucess rate on Mallards at 45yds.

http://www.deltawaterfowl.org/magazine/ ... ng_DB.html

tom

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:00 am 
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Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 7:28 am
Posts: 62
Location: NW Ohio
I have loaded HS for years , the patterens and penatration blows TM away.
If you don't over choke it .
I have patterened it and I never see any need for a choke tighter than MOD .
I use skeet and Ic for decoying birds and a Light Mod for pass shooting .
Ducks 7 1/2 or 6 geese 4 or 2.


There is a new shot being tested and should be out in limited amounts in ammo and for reloading this fall.
TSS Tungsten Super Shot ,it is as round as steel and harder and heavyer than HS.
Form all tests so far #7 1/2 for ducks and #5 for geese
In tests the #5 is out penatratind #2 HS

Here is a link to a post on a test
http://refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=352712

Johnch

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:05 am 
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Blunder's right about that article. It's an excellent resource. I printed off the chart linked to it and examined it. The only negative in my opinion is that the data has been based on idealized shot sizes, and some manufacturers, Bismuth in particular, oversize their shot to make it come closer to the per pellet weight of lead of the same size. (For example, on their website Bismuth lists their #2 shot as being .159 of an inch instead of .150) This not only changes the downrange impact of a pellet, it dramatically changes pellet count.

Hevi-Shot is problematic in this regard too since the pellets are seldom round, and size varies so much from one pellet to the next within the same shot shell. The ballistics chart attached to that article would be perfect if all the shot were perfect.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 1:48 am 
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:shock: I just looked up johnch's link too. 17.8 g/cc? They could load a 2 oz turkey load in a 3" 20 gauge! Cannot wait!

What's it going to cost though...

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 9:52 am 
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The problem with TSS, in my opinion, is that it is only available in the two sizes. Because of the density there are only 180 pellets to the ounce with the 7.5s. When the "chart" formula is applied to this load it will not have enough pattern density. (a 1oz load of HS #6es will out perform it). If they had made TSS in #8 instead of #7.5 it would be a far better duck load.

Satisfactory TSS waterfowl loads are going to 'kick like a mule'

tom

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 10:31 am 
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I asked SP10R about making some #9s. He said he started with #7s because he knew it would be hell to get people to try it because people would say, "How in the world can I kill a duck with #9s?" And SP10R is right. I don't think people would buy it. And it cost more money to make the shot the smaller you go. Blunder, I think one of SP10R goals with this shot is to make them low recoil.

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Last edited by goosehunter2118 on Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:05 am 
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Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:03 pm
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Location: way upstate ny
looks like that stuff patturns awfull tight. Its best use might be those snow geese. Be honest I do not have much issues with steel for duck and cans. Just do your work and get them in close. Snows, now that is different.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Fri Jul 15, 2005 11:09 am 
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Quote:
Blunder, I think one of SP10R goals with this shot is to make them low recoil.


Recoil is the byproduct of velosity & the weight of the load. If the size of the load has to be increased inorder to have high enough of a pellet count in the pattern then recoil can not be avoided. Soooooooooooo, they need to make that smaller shot :P At 180 pellets to the ounce the 7.5s will only have an effective pattern out to 30 yds with a 1oz load, unless you use a super tight choke, and then you would be trying to hit the close-in bird with a pattern about the size of a golf ball.

tom

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 10:05 am 
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I have shot bismuth, tungsten matrix, steel and hevi-shot. I have had real good luck with bismuth and tungsten matrix. After patterning with hevi-shot I think I was way overchoked. I got my most consistant patterns with modified. What I like about TM and bismuth is I can use the same chokes as I would use with lead. What I like about bismuth is it is cheaper to reload than hevi-shot and uses standard reloading components. I can use the same wads and powders I do with lead. When reloading hevi-shot I have to buy special steel reloading wads and powder. I have to mail order the wads. I can pick up the bismuth wads anywhere. I wish I could buy tungsten matrix to reload.


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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 11:40 am 
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Kent TM 2 ounces of size bb they are good for geese, ducks, and coyotes.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2005 2:40 pm 
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Rem870

2 oz. bb?
Anyone for duck burger?

I actually am looking to try the Kent TM in an older Mod 500 16 ga. this year. I figure it shouldn't be too tough on the barrel and perfect for my son to shoot.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2005 10:00 pm 
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opps I ment number 1 not bb but I don't need to use a very tight choke to get good densitys so it is very nice.

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 Post subject: Re: Best Non-toxic shot?
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2005 2:08 am 
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fowlweather wrote:
I actually am looking to try the Kent TM in an older Mod 500 16 ga. this year. I figure it shouldn't be too tough on the barrel and perfect for my son to shoot.


They make a very attractive 1 1/4 oz load of #5 for the "sweet-16" gauge. Also a lighter 1 1/16 oz variant that also comes in #6, I think. You can get a box or a case from www.firearmservice.com It'll be boxed as an upland load, but specifies that it is the same (non-toxic) stuff as they box for 12 and 20 gauge waterfowl loads. (Not to be confused with Kent's upland lead loads!)



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