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 Post subject: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:26 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:32 pm
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I have a double-barrel 10-gauge that is labeled "Moore & Co." on both locks, with "London Fine Twist" on top between the barrels. A side-lever is used to break open the gun, and each hammer has its own trigger. I can't find any other proof marks on the gun.

Overall the wood is in good condition, with checkering behind the trigger guard for grip. The end of the forearm has a chip missing. I don't think the wood has ever been refinished, etc., but has good finish remaining.

Any idea as to age? and value? Since the damascus barrels limit it to black powder or wallhanger status, I would like to use it to get something more useful. Thanks for the help!


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:57 am 
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There ware many guns nade with the name Moore, however none were American, so your gun does have proof marks. There was one quality maker in England, but I dont think he ever just used the"Moore & Co" logo, There were several minor Moore gunmakers in london, but the big suppliers were the Belgians. The Belgians are the real clunkers of the group. So, your gun is likely a $100 to $200 wal hanger, we need the proofs.. Bushrod


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:07 am 
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Various sources list the William Moore & Co. as the manufacturer of shotguns in London or JABC from Belgium marketed by Folsom. Since yours is a 10 ga. side lever, I'd be more inclined to guess London. The proof will be in the proof marks. Have you dismounted the gun? If you remove the barrels, either a London gun or a Belgian ripoff will have proof marks on both the water table and the barrel flats. If you find an oval with an "E" over an "L G", it's a Belgian wall hanger. If not, post every mark (photos if you can) and we should be able to identify it.

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:07 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:32 pm
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Thanks for the replies natty and Lonzo. I feel pretty dumb for not having dismounted the gun to find the proofs. I've had it apart in the past but forgot about the marks.

Anyway, I've tried to attach several pictures to this post. Otherwise, they are on this site in the shotgun photo gallery. The marks on the underside of the barrels are fairly clear in the photos. There are the initials "JW" on the pivot piece, and "G.H" stamped near where the forearm attaches.

Let me know if the pictures are hard to view, and I can try to put the marks into words. Thanks again!

Image

Image

[img]http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/modules.php?set_albumName=Shotguns&id=proofs_3&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_photo.php\[/img]


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 10:35 pm 
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Joined: Sat Sep 13, 2003 11:51 am
Posts: 629
Location: Dixie
If there are identifying proof marks, I can't see them. I can't find what few marks are readable on any of my charts; I'm at a loss- so I'll take a shg. The quality doesn't seem to be very high, certainly not to London standards. Moore and Co. (London) guns were marked Moore & W. Grey after 1844 so should have been muzzle loaders. I'm going to guess JABC because of the workmanship but it's a shg, at best.

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:30 pm 
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This is a real head-scratcher. I'm like 'Lonzo, none of the marks look like anything in my references. The marks are not clear: probably not clear on the gun and certainly not clear in the pics.

One thing that bothers me about what marks are present is that they are only on the barrel tubes, nothing on the barrel flats or the action table. Could those marks have been applied by the maker of the rough tubes, rather than the gun maker?

There are some problems with guessing that the gun is Belgian. First, where are the typical Belgian marks? Remember, those marks were required by law. Second, why would a Belgian gun be marked "London Fine Twist", when Belgium was the world leader in production of Damascus (twist) barrels?

The lack of marks on the barrel flats and action table makes me wonder if it could have been made in the US or Canada. Did anyone in US or Canada ever make a side-lever gun?

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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 12:41 am 
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These few sentences were extracted from http://www.bbhc.org/pointsWest/PWArticl ... ticleID=30 " Prior to that meeting Winchester sold its entire remaining stock of English shotguns (some 1,356 arms) to the New York dealer J. P. Moore & Sons at a loss. Having effectively flooded the New York market with inexpensively priced shotguns to further depress Colt's profit margins, Bennett then went to Hartford and showed Franklin working models of Winchester's new revolver, as well as slide action rifle. "
J.P. Moore was an importer, and Henri Pieper also made guns with the name Moore on them. I wonder if this importer is the source of the guns, whether US or English made or Belgian made? Also Moore imported second line guns from W & C Scott and Sons and they may have marked them with Moore.
Also, see http://www.gabelguns.com/QuestionsAndAn ... umber=1901 as this gun pretty well matches Charles description.


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:04 am 
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Mr. Ben- I've seen a picture on SSMBB of one of the regulars shooting geese with a Dangerfield & Lefever with a side lever. This sent me to "Uncle Dan Lefever- Master Gunmaker" by Robert Elliot. There, on page21, is the action frame shown in these photo's. Same wierd fences, same ornamental sculpting.

Belgians often labeled their lowest grade Twist barrels as "Fine London Twist" in order to cash in on the British reputation for quality. Lack of proof marks on frame would indicate an American frame and the proof marks on the barrels indicate European manufacture. We also know Uncle Dan sold frames to outside sources such as Lindner. Stand by for another SHG!

American manufacturer buys frames from Uncle Dan, possibly inventory on hand at the time of his merger with Barber, installs Belgian barrels and sells them to Moore, who sells them retail. Further SHG. Could the sidelever have been one of the methods used when he was converting muzzle loaders to breach loaders? I don't know. But that is a Dangerfield- Lefever frame. And that ain't no SHG.

Lefever had several partners, among them John Nicholes. Mr Elliott points out, on page 28, when Nicholes departed, he took with him approx. 625 hammergun frames. Seems reasonable as to the source of Dangerfield- Lefever frames.

Sorry I went on so long.

'Lonzo


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 8:32 am 
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The photos don't show much, but I'm still leaning toward a JABC. Bushrod


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 2:22 pm 
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Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:32 pm
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Thanks for all of the info, guys. Sorry the gun was a stumper.
I got the mystery gun pretty much sight-unseen for $50 about a dozen years ago.

I was hoping to trade it off to get something a little more usable, but it sounds like it might not be worth the effort. Know of any good markets to advertise wallhangers such as this?


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 Post subject: Re: Moore & Co. double-barrel 10 gauge
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:48 am 
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As stated before, there were many gunmakers by the name of Moore. Only one, William Moore of London, made real high quality guns.. But he never used the logo "Moore & Co." Its been established that the Proofs are Birmingham, so the gun is likley a cut above a Belgian clunker, however I still think the value of the gun is under $350.. Bushrod


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