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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:25 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:49 pm
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Any gun will malfunction if not cared for. Any good make of auto will do fine if you do fine. Same with the pumps, stop oiling and cleaning and watch what happens. some forgive more than others but all will fail.

Saw a good 1100 fail two weeks back. No oil. Saw a new Mossberg fail, operator error last week. buy what you like auto or not,then you will use and take care of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:31 pm 
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Location: Mobile , Alabama
Greathounder wrote:
Donnie, I got to disagree with you. The only guy I know who is a swat officer said he doesn't have any speciality rounds for his personal weapons. They are kept in a kit for official use


Greathounder

Its ok to disagree with me , but i think you skipped right over my whole point .... i said and i quote

Donnie wrote:
Why do most law enforcement agencies and military prefer to carry a pump? For the above mentioned reason and for its ability to accept a range of specialized munitions , not all autos will shoot everything like a pump plus a working gun takes alot more abuse and neglect then a clay, range or hunting gun.


i Am 34 years old been LEO for 8 years , and am from the south so i had a gun in my hand since i was 12. Never once in my life have i ever seen a remington 870 fail and trust me i have owned a few ...... I have seen , Brownings , remington 1100s and Beretta Al391s fail , the shortshuck is user error and should not be considered a failure if the user creates the problem. Look im not here to argue with anyone , if you love semi's GREAT. I own a couple myself , but i wouldnt chance my life on them , you have to have confidence in your weapon at all times under all circumstances. The swat officer you know doesnt keep any in his home for HD is his choice , as a officer you could shoot anyone in your home and pencil whip the outcome and not even be investigated , just turn in the paper work (less paper work on a corpse then on a injury). In a HD situation i think it is smart for civilians to have bean bags on there weapons if they know the lethal and less lethal criteria. But thats another subject , this one being Semi Vs Pump , a pump is more reliable then a semi under most scenarios point blank. From "MY" experiences the only way a 870 will fail is if you break your arm beyond use of it. Im not saying there is anything wrong with your Semi , im just saying out of the 2 the pump is " more " reliable then a semi , you can not beat simplicity , its mechanical and is fail safe. Just like yourself these are my opinions and experiences.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Grizzlywinmag wrote:
SRG wrote:
Autos are sometimes finniky in what they consume. Pumps work with everything every time.


Not necessarily. My mossberg 500, for example, had failure to eject problems with 3" Remington shells one year.

And there's always the infamous short-shuck.


Your 3" shells may have been actually longer than 3". It happens. Sellior&Bellot 2 3/4" are actually closer to 3". Did your gun fail to eject ALL 3" shells or only that particular load? That problem cannot be necessarily blamed on the gun unless more facts are known.

Short shucking is an operator error and cannot be blamed on the pump design as a failure. Short shucking is something that training can overcome. That is not the case with the failure rate of semi's.

Again, I'm not down on semiauto shotguns. Quite the opposite. I love them. They are just not ideal for personal defense scenarios. But then again, I'd rather have a semi than nothing in an attack.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 1:41 am 
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Location: West Michigan
Isn't it wonderfull that we live in a country that gives us the freedom to disagree with each other.
I just looked in the safe and there are 3 Rem semi's, 2 Mossy pumps, 2 Winny 9410's and 3 SBS doubles, and the only one that ever failed on me was a Mossy pump. The screw that holds the ejector came loose and backed out to the point the action wouldn't close. I missed a few birds, while I tightened it with a jackknife.
When I went through my ccw class, I asked the prosocutor about less lethal ammo. He said the only legal non lethal weapon was 2% pepper spray in Michigan, for personal protection. We aren't even allowed to have the strong stuff or the larger size containers.
Another thing that doesn't make sense to me is, I can carry a handgun, but if I have a SG in the car, it has to be in a case in the trunk or in the very back of my suv. That 45 can be loaded, but the SG has to be unloaded. Makes sense?????


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:05 am 
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Greathounder,

I do the government like I do my wife, I quit trying to understand them. The legal system and women...both as frustrating as humanly possible.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:10 am 
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My one, but very reliable autoloader did finally choke up on some paper hulled fiochhi's I bought for the fun of it. so papers is out, but i trust it with most other loads.

and I did actually short stroke my 870 shooting trap doubles last week because I got a little excited. I did manage to get the second shot off, but the point is that you can mess up either type of action.


I saw a guy shooting an SX2 winchester practical SG last week also and it wouldn't even cycle 3-1/4 dram bird shot..its gas piston must be set for buck shot only out of the box. made me scratch what I thought was a good SG off my wish list.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 9:35 am 
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Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 4:49 pm
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Let me chime in here, a jam may mean different things to different people to a Saiga a jam is nothing it takes seconds to clear, with most other guns it takes some doing to clear. I have seen Remington's 870 jam big time in the middle of matches.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:37 am
Posts: 476
Donnie wrote:
Autos are good for standing at a range and shooting paper or clays , or even in a duck blind i will give you that. But if you are talking a working gun , you would almost be a fool to take a auto into the field as your weapon. Take a pump shotgun and a auto shotgun roll them around in the mud and dirt , pick them up and see which one shoots. The pump is a mechanical mechanism and does not rely on a gas system , it is fail safe. Why do most law enforcement agencies and military prefer to carry a pump? For the above mentioned reason and for its ability to accept a range of specialized munitions , not all autos will shoot everything like a pump plus a working gun takes alot more abuse and neglect then a clay, range or hunting gun. Autos are finicky Benelli being the less finicky then all the rest but still finicky. If you want a shotgun that when you pick it up it will shoot guaranteed no matter what hell its been through or what ammo you are using , get a pump.

Topmaul
Dont take this the wrong way , but i have seen ALOT more autos fail then a pump in my life time.... I wouldnt trust my life on the line with an auto shotgun. If you like autos , thats your thing and i respect that but a pump is WAY WAY WAY more reliable then a auto.


Complete nonsense! If you learn and practice with a Semi you will be just fine. I prefer a Semi, this after years of using a Pump. That being said, either will suffice for a civilian.

-Cheers


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 12:36 pm 
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Mr. Ferguson,
Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately, you'll get argument all day long from those who HAVE NOT been in the field (duty) and where NONE of the clay pidgeons have shot back at them.
Your insight is is the most sensible yet.
Thanks again.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 6:46 pm 
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While I'm not in an LE position at the moment don't assume that I'm a know nothing. I should have expanded what I ment by warning when I wrote it I was on my way to work and in a bit of a hurry and really did not explain my point very well. I would not shoot an intruder with out first giving some kind of challenge racking a pump is just as good as "Halt Who Goes THere" I would hate to shoot a loved one. Maybe a son who went to visit his girlfriend in the middle of the night and was sneaking back into the house?

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:14 pm 
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Personally, I would not feel ill equiped with a QUALITY semi auto for HD or duty use.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 7:36 pm
Posts: 73
Each have there trade offs. Not everyone can afford 1300 dollar shotgun that has a high chance of just collecting dust in the corner of the room or being forgotten in the gun safe. THe semi automatics have the potential advantages of reduced recoil and quicker reload time. This comes with the draw back that a round might not have enough inertia or gas to recycle the second round completly or for some other reason, that shell never makes it into the chamber. While I have never shot a pump shotgun; I know from experience that non semis have much more recoil and if your choosing to use some obscene shell like the 3 inch magnum 00 buckshot, your going to encounter devestating reaction time as compared to the semi automatic. With this said, go with what you have practiced and experienced with and what you can afford to spend. Remember, what ever you buy, make sure all who may need to use it actually take it out and put a few hundred shells through it.


Last edited by Super Sport on Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:21 pm 
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Location: Mobile , Alabama
Its not my family you guys are protecting , its yours .... so get what you want.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:12 pm 
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terd ferguson wrote:
Grizzlywinmag wrote:
SRG wrote:
Autos are sometimes finniky in what they consume. Pumps work with everything every time.


Not necessarily. My mossberg 500, for example, had failure to eject problems with 3" Remington shells one year.

And there's always the infamous short-shuck.


Your 3" shells may have been actually longer than 3". It happens. Sellior&Bellot 2 3/4" are actually closer to 3". Did your gun fail to eject ALL 3" shells or only that particular load? That problem cannot be necessarily blamed on the gun unless more facts are known.

Short shucking is an operator error and cannot be blamed on the pump design as a failure. Short shucking is something that training can overcome. That is not the case with the failure rate of semi's.


Yes, it makes more sense to talk about failure rates than to speak in absolutes. And the problem with the shells was just with the Remingtons, probably hulls that weren't cut correctly. Winchester and Federal shells worked just fine. A few years later I started using Remingtons again, and I haven't seen the problem since.

But saying you can't blame short shucking on the shotgun doesn't make much sense to me, because it's a potential problem that will always exist for a pump. Not everyone can afford the training, or the training may fail (sympathetic nervous system reactions, yikes).

As to the issue at hand, mmmm, I'm still undecided. Do you know of any actual studies on shotgun reliability (or any firearm for that matter) where someone has looked at the issue quantitatively?


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 10:36 pm 
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I dont know of any studies , i do know that the mossberg 590A1 pump was the only shotgun to pass and be granted a Mil-spec certification # with there torture and field testing , remington didnt participate but alot of other shotgun companies did including several semi autos. Remington didnt participate , because they had nothing to gain and everything to lose. They already dominate the Military and law enforcement market ....so im sure they didnt want a write up saying anything bad about there shotguns. The best people to ask would be gunsmiths and armorers who service alot of the guns.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Wed Mar 01, 2006 11:49 pm 
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Grizzlywinmag wrote:

Yes, it makes more sense to talk about failure rates than to speak in absolutes. And the problem with the shells was just with the Remingtons, probably hulls that weren't cut correctly. Winchester and Federal shells worked just fine. A few years later I started using Remingtons again, and I haven't seen the problem since.

But saying you can't blame short shucking on the shotgun doesn't make much sense to me, because it's a potential problem that will always exist for a pump. Not everyone can afford the training, or the training may fail (sympathetic nervous system reactions, yikes).

As to the issue at hand, mmmm, I'm still undecided. Do you know of any actual studies on shotgun reliability (or any firearm for that matter) where someone has looked at the issue quantitatively?


It sounds like the issue was with the size if the shells to me.

You make a good point about the short shucking issue in this post. I've never viewed it as a potential problem that always exists because my training has overcome that. But for some, maybe it is.

I don't know of any "real" studies legitimately comparing shotgun brands for reliability. I do, however, participate in a number of gun forums and see the threads (as I'm sure you do to) like "Why does my 1187 not like all kinds of ammo?" or "Is my sidesaddle making my semi jam?". I just don't see the same kinds of threads about the pumps. I do see a lot of threads like "Does my heatshield look cool?" about the pumps though, lol.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 12:57 am 
Gunsmith
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grizzlywinmag wrote:
But saying you can't blame short shucking on the shotgun doesn't make much sense to me, because it's a potential problem that will always exist for a pump.



There is also the potential of hitting your head on the toaster but that doesn't make the toaster unreliable. Because you hit your head on the toaster is the toaster unreliable?
The point is, all things considered, that a pump shotgun is ultimately more reliable than a semi-automatic. I didn't say ABSOLUTELY reliable. Just MORE reliable. The function of semis is oft times ammo-dependent. Not so with a pump.


Edit; Apparently I can't figure out how to make this quote thing work. I think that makes this quote thing unreliable.

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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:19 am 
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Location: West Michigan
I still say the guy should get his hands on many different gun, and buy the one that feels right to him. And then get a lot of trigger time.
And as far as not knowing what it's like to be shot at, I have an idea. I turned 21 at the start of the 1968 tet offensive, some where, a bunch of klicks north of Da'nang, RVN. As a infantry sniper. I also know what it's like to have a good friend killed, who was standing an arms lenght away from me. I was lucky, he was targeted.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 2:27 am 
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Greathounder wrote:
I still say the guy should get his hands on many different gun, and buy the one that feels right to him. And then get a lot of trigger time.


These are words of wisdom.

The 11th Commandment-

Thou shalt find the one best shotgun only by experiencing many different shotguns.

Amen.


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 Post subject: Re: Best for HD and SHTF: Semi Auto Vs. Pump, and which mode
PostPosted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:35 am 
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SRG wrote:
Grizzlywinmag wrote:
But saying you can't blame short shucking on the shotgun doesn't make much sense to me, because it's a potential problem that will always exist for a pump.


There is also the potential of hitting your head on the toaster but that doesn't make the toaster unreliable. Because you hit your head on the toaster is the toaster unreliable?


That depends, is the toaster designed so that you have to raise it precariously above your head to operate it?

If the goal is to turn bread into toast, and one toaster doesn't do it 1% of the time because the lever doesn't latch, and another brand of toaster doesn't do it 1% of the time because it's easy to think you've pressed the lever all the way down and you really haven't, that's a one percent failure rate. Either way, 99 times out of 100, the poor guy wanted toast and he didn't get any.

Quote:
The point is, all things considered, that a pump shotgun is ultimately more reliable than a semi-automatic. I didn't say ABSOLUTELY reliable. Just MORE reliable. The function of semis is oft times ammo-dependent. Not so with a pump.


If the function of the semi is ammo dependent, then isn't giving your semi shotgun pump reliability just a matter of using the right ammo?

Quote:
Edit; Apparently I can't figure out how to make this quote thing work.


The quote tags are
Code:
[quote]what Jim Smith said[/quote]
like that, or
Code:
[quote="Jim Smith"]what Jim Smith said[/quote]


Which then looks like

Quote:
what Jim Smith said


and

Jim Smith wrote:
what Jim Smith said


respectively.

terd ferguson wrote:
I don't know of any "real" studies legitimately comparing shotgun brands for reliability. I do, however, participate in a number of gun forums and see the threads (as I'm sure you do to) like "Why does my 1187 not like all kinds of ammo?" or "Is my sidesaddle making my semi jam?". I just don't see the same kinds of threads about the pumps.


When someone short-shucks a shell, it's pretty obvious why it didn't work, they short-shucked it. Most people probably wouldn't post about that, the reason for the failure is obvious. But when a semi fails, well, maybe it's a mechanical problem that can be fixed. Is it possible that one type of failure is more likely to get mentioned than the other?


Last edited by Grizzlywinmag on Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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