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 Post subject: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:29 pm 
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As the title says Im looking to ID an older double barrel 12ga shotgun (side by side)

On the barrels its marked "Made in Spain" and "Krupp fluid steel" on the other less the " ".

It has two triggers, the safety is under the barrel catch lever and its take down release for the fore arm is a plunger out the front.

The barrels are 28 inches and they are marked for choke - 17.7 18.5 and 18 18.5

It also has 12-70 stamped in an oval along with 850kgs on one barrel.some of the other marks are "U1" (was told it means 1976) -- A shield topped with a knights helmet with an "X" in it -- A pair of crossed guns with a "2" in the center -- A shield with "BP" and an Oval in it -- "M4" -- "MCS" -- "14106" and some other light stampings.

It also has the serial # PG29*** one the stock, fore arm, barrels, action and the last 3 digits of the serial on all large internal parts.

Any help in its ID would be apreciated. I was told its a "Pride of Spain" but Ive also been told it would have been marked as such on the barrel.

Thanks Again

Whip 440




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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:53 pm 
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Maybe Mr. Ben will be along to help, but I'm quite sure it;s not a Pride of Spain, with Krpp Barrels. Bushrod


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:38 pm 
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I'm going to need some help here, Bushrod - I'm not getting very far with this one, aside from the obvious marks. Of course I agree that with Krupp steel in the barrels it has to be better than a Pride of Spain (POS!)

U1 does indeed mean it was proof-tested (ie, made) in 1976. I would expect to see a tiny * directly over and between the U and the 1.

12-70 means 12 gauge with 2 3/4" chambers.

17.7/18.5 means 0.031" of choke constriction, which is generally considered to be Light Full.

18/18.5 is 0.020" choke, Modified.

850kgs - A shield topped with a knights helmet with an "X" in it -- A pair of crossed guns with a "2" in the center -- A shield with "BP" and an Oval in it - All are standard proof marks from the Eibar proof house.

I can't figure out the M4 or MCS, nor do I know whether the PG prefix on the serial number means anything.

Whip, do the PG letters have periods after them as P.G. ? (Bushrod, you know where I am going with that - Pedro Gorosobel - but I doubt it.)

Do the letters MCS appear directly after the number 14106 and is there a line under the letters? Could it be MOS rather than MCS?

Whip, look at this page http://web.jet.es/rafa/b_punzones_larga_lisa.html
and tell us whether any of the marks on the page are on the gun.

Other than that, I'm stumped.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:12 am 
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Thanks for the help to this point.

To answer your questions and hopefully leed up to a clearer picture.

There is some kind of mark over the "U1" not sure if its a * but it could be.

The "M4" is more than likley an "MA" - no hint of underlining or that funny looking border from the marks page.

The "MCS" is "MOS" - Once I knew what it should be finding the outline of the light strike was easy.

On the barrels there is a definate strike that appears to be a . between the PG - I forgot to throw the pic on my flash drive so ill have to post it latter. Then you can make the determination your self.

No the "MOS" is not right after the 1410G - After a little more scrubbing and picking the 6 is actually a G.

None of the marks are on the gun just as they apear on that page - The PG and MA are the only ones with even a resemblance.

Alright hope the answers help. This all leads to my newest Q: IS P.G. the mark of a holly grail kind of piece or is it something I should be afraid of if by apparently some far off chance it is one?

Thanks Again

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:34 am 
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No, P.G. is not a holy grail, just a well-known name of medium quality. It is better than Pride of Spain, but then, all of them are.

I'll get back to you after I see the new pic.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:41 pm 
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Finally got the pic ready to go --

Image

Hope it works and shows the marks OK.

Thanks Again

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:54 pm 
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I can't see anything in that pic.

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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:32 pm 
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Hope it looks better this time - i hate free image hosts - LOL

Image

Whip 440

Looks good on my laptop - So I hope its better for you this time.

Thanks Again


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:21 pm 
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Yeah, that's better.

I am assuming the 1410G is on the barrels on the barrel flats, rather than the action flats. If that is correct, I think (not certain) it means the barrels weigh 1410 grams. That is in the right neighborhood for a 12 ga SxS with 2 3/4" chambers, 28 inches. Not all makers put the weight on the barrels.

I'm not sure about the MOS. That mark is not in the standard references on proof marks, but I think it is something related to the strength of the barrels. On my AyA, those letters are small and underlined, and appear after the number 14603. Is yours underlined, and does it appear after a number?

Now to the main question - who made this gun? I clearly see a dot after the P preceeding the serial number, but I can't tell for sure if there is a dot after the G. A close examination with bright light and a magnifying glass would help. I'm betting there is a dot there, and if so I would bet that the gun was made by Pedro Gorosabel.

Unfortunately, I don't know much about Gorosabel. (Notice the spelling - I spelled it wrong in another post.) It is not listed in the Blue Book of Gun Values. A book I have printed in 1991 lists several boxlock models (501, 502, 503) imported during the 1980's and valued (1991) at $525-875 and 2 sidelock valued at $775-1200. Wieland's book lists them only in an appendix, and says they were in business in 1972, making sidelock and boxlock SxS guns.

BTW, I forgot to ask you f this is a sidelock or a boxlock.

Gorosabel have a reputation for being good shooters, but not valuable collectors items.

Here are a few things I found with a Google search.

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976649869.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976539255.htm

http://sellagun.net/Classifieds/CPViewItem.asp?ID=14894

http://www.mendipclays.co.uk/gunlists/default.asp

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... w=previous

http://www.thadscott.com/european.html

http://www.trulockandharris.com/usedguns_sidebyside.htm

But remember, I cannot be sure this is a Gorosabel.

That's all for now.

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"Beretta 391 Disassembly" - What the owner's manual doesn't tell you. See: viewtopic.php?t=123733
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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:09 pm 
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Thanks for every thing up to this point and beyond. Its a lot more than I had and vary well apreciated.

Its my first bridge action so Im not sure if its a box or side lock. :oops:

Id vote box - as it has a pierced tang between the barrels at the rear which is latched in by a horizontal pin that exits the side of the action and is opened via the lever on the stock.

The MOS is small and it follows the 1410G very close. I cant see any underlining but it may show with more cleaning as it was a filthy little pig when I got it but more keeps showing through.

Not being real rare or pricey is ok for me I gave $220 for it at a show with the intent to shoot the daylights out of it and enjoy it for what it was meant to be - A god boom stick - A good value would almost ruin the fun.

Ill try to get up some decent overal pics posted up tommorow to show it off. For the money its not a bad little gun.

Thanks again for all the help and knowledge.

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:09 pm 
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http://www.hallowellco.com/boxlock.htm#Boxlock

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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:29 pm 
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Whip 440 wrote:
Id vote box - as it has a pierced tang between the barrels at the rear which is latched in by a horizontal pin that exits the side of the action and is opened via the lever on the stock.


That went right over my head the first time I read it, but I thought about it as I was putting my AyA back in the safe (I got it out earlier to look at the proof marks).

Aha! The plot thickens!

That is a Greener crossbolt. You don't find that on the typical "cheap Spanish shotgun". I don't mean that it is anything rare and valuable, but a gun with that feature is a cut above the ordinary.

Does it look like this? http://www.hallowellco.com/greener_crossbolt.htm

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"Beretta 391 Disassembly" - What the owner's manual doesn't tell you. See: viewtopic.php?t=123733
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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:17 am 
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Cool - yes it is a greener crossbolt! Thats why i couldnt match it perfectley.

well here she is -- as a side note the coloring in the engraving is me playing with my china markers - not the way it came.

Image

Image

Image

The other side is the same - but the screws are a little chewed up thanks to the last owner.

Thanks Again

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Thu Mar 09, 2006 10:27 pm 
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Those pics are very interesting. I see several things I'll mention later when I have more time (tomorrow).

For now, lets just talk about the reciever. In the pics it seems to have a funny color I'm not familiar with - almost as if it was an aluminum alloy. Al alloy frames are common in automatics (usually black anodized or electroless-nickel plated), but I have never heard of one on a SxS or O/U.

Bushrod, if you are following this, have you ever heard of a SxS or O/U with an Al alloy frame?

Whip, does it have the same color like aluminum in real life, or is it just the pic?

Put a magnet against that frame and see if it is magnetic.

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"Beretta 391 Disassembly" - What the owner's manual doesn't tell you. See: viewtopic.php?t=123733
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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:40 am 
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Ive never really gave any time to thinking about the metal of the reciever- It is a good match to the color in the pic and its fairly suprising how heavy it is.

:idea:

If it would turn out its an AL aloy (Ill check it out tonight) It would explain a few things including the fact that the screw that holds the trigger plate to the reciever had a split head - figgured that out when I cleaned it and I should have a replacement by the end of saturday. But all of the screw heads seemed slick and soft when I tore it down.

You can kinda see the sross bolt in the one pic- ill see if I have a better one along and post it - but it has a very ?metalic? look compared to the reciever body. Like I said though Ill get it checked tonight to see if its magnetic - it might require a partial tear down to get a spot not backed by known steel but thats not a problem.

Thanks Again

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2006 10:33 pm 
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Checked it out - The action is STEEL it must have a coating on it as the color is permanent and vary hard - but it dose have a tone change on the flat under the barrels.

Thanks Again for all the info and work - Who knows this might turn into the addiction my Berettas are and Ill end up just as informed about these guns.

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 12:00 am 
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OK, now that we've got that issue settled, let me mention several things I noticed in the pics.

I'm getting mixed signals about the quality of this gun. It has several features that are usually seen on higher-grade guns: Greener crossbolt, side clips, Krupp steel, Anson forearm release, all screw slots properly lined up, brass oval inlaid in the stock. Nevertheless, I don't think it is an expensive model. There is something about the "engraving" that looks very machine-made, the receiver finish is rather strange, ...I can't quite put my finger on what else it is about the gun that just doesn't reach out and say "top quality".

My guess is, this gun was made by a company that mainly produced cheap to medium priced guns, but this one is probably not the cheapest grade within that maker's line. It was made specifically for export to the US (in spite of the European-style sling swivels) - it would not be marked "Made in Spain" otherwise. Strangely, it does not bear the maker's name (not prominantly, anyway). It must have been made for an importer who sold it under his own name, indicating that the maker's name would not be recognized in the US or would not carry enough prestige with it to justify bragging about it.

Since I don't have any pictures of Gorosabel boxlocks to compare it with, I don't see anything that definitely says it is a Gorosabel - but I don't see anything that says it isn't, and I do believe the P.G. on the barrel flats is the Gorosabel signature.

Bottom line - this is not a real expensive gun, but it is of better quality than the typical "cheap Spanish double" - and way way better than a Pride of Spain. It is certainly worth the $220 you paid for it, and would be worth more if there wasn't reason to worry about wear. Unfortunately, it has been used a lot. Notice that the top lever is slightly to the left of center with the gun closed. Top levers on SxS and O/U's start out to the right, and move to the center as the locking lugs wear. When it gets to the left of center, it may start popping open when fired. That is not a safety hazard, because it will only crack open slightly, but it does interfere with your shooting. It is hard to say exactly when that will start happening. When it does, the gun will need repair, and parts availability will become an issue. However, even without parts, a good gunsmith can fix it. With that much use, there is also the possibility that it is off face, i.e., the hinge pin may be worn and loose. That too can be fixed. The cost of the fixes will not be huge, but it will seem like a lot for a gun that only cost $220. (That may be why the price was that low.) You could have the action tightened up and still have a good field gun for a reasonable cost.

BTW, not every local gunsmith that works on rifles and handguns would be a good choice to tighten up a SxS action. When and if you need to get it done, look for someone who handles a lot of SxS's. Here is one: http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/y-001 They say they will rebuild/tighten a SxS action for $175.

I'm sorry I can't be more definite about the make and model. Let me know if you find out any more about it. I have enjoyed doing the research on it, even though it is disappointing that I couldn't answer all the questions.

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"Beretta 391 Disassembly" - What the owner's manual doesn't tell you. See: viewtopic.php?t=123733
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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:13 pm 
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I've been following this discussion with interest. This gun shares a number of features with a 20ga SxS I bought new in the early '70's for +/- $175. Its a Loyola with 3" chambers. Some of the proof marks are different. I do have the C.K. in an oval which according to Seamus's list indicates Lucio Loyola. Each barrel has a crest with the name Loyola in it. It has the same forearm release and it shares the Greener style action. The sides have slightly different screws and I have two pins, one were the pin is on Whipp's gun and one were the double screws are in the center. Like this, it appears that the bottom could drop out with the lock system and triggers, but I have never taken it down that far. I could never figure out how to get the stock off. There is no rear through bolt in the stock, and I did not want to mess up the screw heads. The slots are very shallow and thin. They are also lined up like Whipp's gun. Mine also has the same shape release lever and the same little "ears" on either side of the reciever at the barrels.

I just thought I throw in my 2 cents. From what little I have been able to find out about my gun, I don't think its a Pride of Spain production. It sure shares a number of features with Whipp's gun. Seamus do you know anything about Loyola?


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 9:13 pm 
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Once again Thanks for all thework and info its really apreciated.

Now this isnt to rag on you or any one else becouse I got the same comment from a guy at workwhen I showed him the pics about it being on the down hill to shot out by looking at the pics.

But I dont have any noticable indication that the barrels dont lock up square and tight (the action is actually rather stiff) and the pic makes it look funny on the release but that particular screw you see is set 3/4 way across the strap not at center.

Now this all said I have not had a chance to shoot the gun yet.

So I gues that leaves one last set of questions - How do you tell if a gun is "off face" or that the hinging is wore. I hope to get it out either tomorrow or latter this week for a test fire. :D :D

So I hope all will go well and I dont end up a nice crispy pile-O-crap when all is said and done.

Thanks Again

Whip 440


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 Post subject: Re: Looking to ID a spanish double barrel
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2006 11:25 pm 
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Whip, for additional info, see http://gunshop.comIsClosed/ubb/ultimatebb.php?u ... 1;t=021945
BTW, the guy who responded to that question, JimfromTrafalgar, is also a frequent contributor to this forum. Let me expand a little on what he said about testing to see if the gun is "loose". Remove the forearm and hold the gun by the wrist of the stock (the pistol grip) with the barrels sticking straight up. Shake the gun side-to-side and see if you can feel any looseness in the joint. If you can, it is pretty badly off face and shooting it in that condition will cause it to wear very rapidly, although it is not dangerous. It can sometimes be difficult to feel the looseness. The first time I felt it, an expert on old guns was showing me that my grandfather's LC Smith was loose, and at first I could not feel it at all, but it was there and after trying it repeatedly I finally was able to feel it.

The screw being off center is common - some boxlocks are designed that way - it has something to do with the way the internal parts fit together. But that has nothing to do with the fact that the top lever is left of center.

Aero, it is no coincidence that the receiver of your gun looks a lot like Whip's: the receivers were probably both forged in the same shop, even though the guns were not made by the same manufacturer. The many small gunmakers in the Basque region of Spain do not make all the parts of a gun in-house, they buy components from specialists and finish them to their own specifications. Loyola and Gorosabel probably both started with identical frame forgings from the same source. That practice has been, and still is, common in Spain, Italy, Belgium, Germany, England, and probably a lot of other places.

I could not remember having ever heard of Loyola when I read your post, and when I did a quick search I only found one reference to it. That was in Terry Wieland's "Spanish Best". He mentions the name one time. Since it may be of interest to both you and Whip, I am going to quote an entire paragraph from the book.

Much has been made in recent years about the numbers of inferior Spanish doubles which were - and are - imported to the United States. What is rarely said is that the American companies who brought them in were importing what they thought American shooters would be willing to buy. The 1974 Gun Digest lists half a dozen Spanish side-by-sides, including the Loyola imported by Jana, the Star Gauge imported by Interarms, an Ugartechea boxlock by American Import, and the Zababla by Galef. For the next few years, the import game was like a shooting gallery: the same names pop up, then disappear, then pop up again, this time imported by a different company. It was like a game of musical chairs in which the chairs move as well. Trying to piece together a comprehensive look at who imported what, and for how long, would drive the most well-adjusted researcher over the edge. It is definitely not a task for y'r ob'd't servant, for several reasons (including his mental health) but mainly because it is hardly worth the effort. Most of these guns were iminently forgettable.



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