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 Post subject: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:43 pm 
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I asked my grandfather about the difference in muzzle blast between a .308 Win and a 12 Ga. He simply commented that the .308 "It goes boom". He said it was louder than his 12 Ga. :shock:
Sound Right to you?

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sat Mar 25, 2006 8:47 pm 
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Yeah, its definately goes "boom"...as far as recoil, I think the .308 in a bolt action has the 12 gauge beat.

Not really sure from a standing position, only time I've shot a .308 is from a sandbag...they seem to kick a little harder from this position.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 12:29 am 
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No comparison... no way could anyone I know tolerate shooting 250 rounds of .308 in an afternoon! 12 gauge shotgunners do that frequently. Muzzle blast? No comparison there either to my ears.
...j


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:38 am 
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Beginner Trap wrote:
I asked my grandfather about the difference in muzzle blast between a .308 Win and a 12 Ga. He simply commented that the .308 "It goes boom". He said it was louder than his 12 Ga. :shock:
Sound Right to you?

Thanks
Beginner Trap


A couple of variables exist that affect the outcome of your question: barrel length and whether the rifle wears a muzzle brake. The shorter the barrel, the more worse the blast. My brother's Remington M700 LTR .308 with its 20 inch barrel has horrendous blast, much worse than the 26 inch barrelled version. Most rifles with muzzle brakes are also bad offenders in this regard. It is extremely unpleasant sitting at a bench next to someone shooting a rifle with a brake.

As for being able to shoot 250 rounds through either weapon, it depends on the weight of the gun, the load, and the shooting position from which it is fired. Like the other poster said, many shooters don't have a problem shooting 250 12 gauge target loads at clay targets from a standing position since the body can roll with the recoil. However, sit the same shooter down at a bench (or prone) with a light, short barrelled shotgun and heavy slug loads and try shooting 250 rounds. The .308 in this latter case will usually produce much less recoil than the 12 gauge, which can approach .375 H&H recoil levels with the right load and weapon. There is no really simple answer to your post as you can see, so I'll quit rambling. :D

Russell420


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:47 am 
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...not to mention how much 250 rounds of .308 would cost! That would be one expensive trip to the range whether you reload or not.
...j


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 7:23 am 
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j beede wrote:
No comparison... no way could anyone I know tolerate shooting 250 rounds of .308 in an afternoon! 12 gauge shotgunners do that frequently.




I don't know about that as I have put 10,000 rounds of 7.62 X 51 down range in an afternoon every day for 2 weeks but then again that was a DFSW shoot with a Mag 58 GSMG.


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 10:14 am 
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The .308 shoots flatter. The 12 gauge has got a bigger pattern.


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Sun Mar 26, 2006 1:10 pm 
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Actually, true recoil depends a lot on the weight of the gun. Perceived recoil depends primarily on how the gun fits you, and at least a couple of dozen other factors, both physical and mental.

But last time I checked, the actual recoil of a .308 150 grain and a 12 ga. 2 3/4 dram 1 1/8 oz skeet or trap load in a 7 lb. gun was about the same. (About 17 foot pounds) Yeah, a hi-velocity bullet leaving the barrel at about Mach 3 is going to give some noise (a sonic boom in reality), and it affects pleasurable shooting. But it doesn't have a thing to do with recoil. The noise may just make shooting the rifle more unpleasant and contribute to the "bad" experience of pulling the trigger.

But shoot a 3 3/4 dram, 1 1/4 oz. heavy hunting load and a 12 gauge actually recoils about TWICE as hard as a .308.

BobK

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 12:29 am 
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Rifle recoil feels like a sharp jab and shotgun recoil feels like a long push (to ME). I think it is hard to make an accurate comparison between slow deliberate rifle shooting and shooting moving targets with a shotgun. The slow deliberate (rested) shooting style seems to amplify recoil as you can't "roll with the punches". Then again, I rarely shoot heavy loads in my shotguns...... A rifles noise level and muzzle blast tends to wear me down as much as the recoil. 15-40 well aimed rifle shells and I'm done. I can easily shoot 250 light shotgun shells. Recoil is a personal thing; find out for your self! :D


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 1:25 am 
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I've been shotgunning for most of the winter. Took my .308 M1 garand out last weekend and at least in a gas gun, it felt darned mild in comparison. I did get in a good bit of shooting but I only brought one can of ammo. I do however notice that my Garand in the original 30-06 configuration has slightly more bump than the .308 conversion.


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 2:46 pm 
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Most folks who use both weapons with any amount of frequency will tell you that a 12 Gauge shooting clays or (God forbid, these days - ref. Cheney vs. Upland Lawyers) quail, can be fired all day without any particular problems with the recoil or noise creating serious fatigue.

The .308 will wear you down quick, not because the actual bashing is any different, but just because you have to have a tight hold and a firm cheek weld to be able to actually hit anything you are shooting at. In this circumstance your body gets treated to 100% of the recoil, and you have to hold tight and fight it, not "roll with it" like a shotgunner does.

That being said, use a shotgun the same way as you do your .308, meaning bench or sandbag rest, tight hold and firm cheek weld to the stock, and use magnum slugs or sabots for similar longe range shooting, and the 12 gauge "rifle" will send you home with a sore shoulder (and the occasional black eye and cut eyebrow) much sooner than the .308.

Some of us do a lot of rifled barrel benchrest work with shotguns of all sizes, and you can be sure that we're the ones heading down to the drugstore for the hot-wraps on the way home from the range.

(Of course we also meet a lot of centerfire magnum rifle shooters in that "GEEEEEZZZ does my shoulder hurt" line at the Walgreen)

Bottom line seems to be that the weight of the bullet and the amount of powder pushing it is the final answer to whose butt gets kicked the hardest, whether your "Rifle" is using brass or paper shells. There are few if any of the brass ones that create the same level of pain as the 3" Magnum 12 Gauge Sabots. which are the Masochist's Special Black and Blue Label Reserve, for sure.

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Last edited by OneInchGroup on Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:06 pm 
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OneInchGroup wrote:
Most folks who use both weapons with any amount of frequency will tell you that a 12 Gauge shooting clays or (God forbid, these days) quail, can be fired all day without any particular problems with the recoil or noise creating serious fatigue.


12 ga is bad for quail? Can't see why, as you can load it down to 7/8 oz, with factory loads easy, much like a standard 20 ga load. Some reloaders here on SGW even take it to 3/4 oz. You're not overgunning a situation with a 12 ga if you choose the proper payload.

As for 308 versus 12 recoil, I agree. It'll beat you after a few rounds.

TAB

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:09 pm 
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The quail comment was about the VP's adventure, nothing to do with the actual hunting of the little things.

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:11 pm 
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OIG-

I suspect I'm dense, I totally missed that. :lol:

Poor Dick. I never did hear if he got the quail before hitting Harry.

TAB

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 3:19 pm 
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thomasartbutler wrote:
OIG-

I suspect I'm dense, I totally missed that. :lol:

Poor Dick. I never did hear if he got the quail before hitting Harry.

TAB


I understand he was guilty of TWO violations of cardinal rules:
1. Shoot your hunting buddy.
2. Fail to confirm your kill and pick up the bird you downed.....in the confusion after. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Mon Mar 27, 2006 4:25 pm 
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Beginner Trap wrote:
I asked my grandfather about the difference in muzzle blast between a .308 Win and a 12 Ga. He simply commented that the .308 "It goes boom". He said it was louder than his 12 Ga. :shock:
Sound Right to you?

Thanks
Beginner Trap


Yes, the MUZZLE BLAST of the 308 is abut 60,000 psi; for the 12 ga 11,500 psi.

QED

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 9:21 am 
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The .308 is very gentle, in terms of recoil, when compared to a 12 gauge, especially slugs!

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 10:09 am 
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I used to shoot National Match with the M1A chambered for 7.62X51 (308 Winchester). We shot from the standing, seated, and prone positions. A normal match was 50 to 80 rounds with 2 sighters for each event. We would shoot with a leather shooting jacket. I never noticed much recoil fatigue. As you learned to shoot it you seemed to develop a system to handle the rifle and recoil. Waverider, let me ask you a question, please don't take this as a flame as it is not. Are you talking Muzzle Blast or Chamber Pressure? Next, if you are speaking PSI where did you find 308's in the 60,000 psi area :shock: . That puppy would get your attention.


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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:18 am 
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This might be a little off topic, but apparently Remington makes a model SPR94 12/308 combo.

Hoosier_5 I think I would agree with you especialy if your shooting double-x magnum turkey loads!

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 Post subject: Re: .308 Vs. 12 Gauge
PostPosted: Tue Mar 28, 2006 6:02 pm 
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MDMike,

Good catch, I could say that it was a test. 8) But, I looked up the chamber pressures and did not note that it was as such. :oops:

Still the related pressures at the muzzle should show more pressure for the 308 than 12 ga. This is just my speculation, since I have not seen any actual data.

I found it interesting that Beginner Trap made no mention of recoil, perceived nor actual. Yet almost all of the replies referenced recoil.

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