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 Post subject: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:34 pm
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Location: ohio
I like them both ,but I favor the M12




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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:39 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:47 am
Posts: 87
Nothing better than a Model 12!
:D


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:43 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 05, 2005 4:51 pm
Posts: 6804
Location: E. Rochester NY
Both were GOOD GUNS and classic pumps.

I owned a M12, though - just got a better deal on one in a PX while in the Marines on R&R! (Better make that "I&I"!!)

BobK

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 5:48 pm 
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Location: Kearney NE
Model 12!

BP

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:33 pm 
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Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:32 pm
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Location: Houston, Texas
Model 12, but both are dandy's

RTA48


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:37 pm 
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Gimme a Ithaca 37 anyday!

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:04 pm 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:52 pm
Posts: 6067
Location: Ontario, Canada
31 for me.


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:10 pm 
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Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Your funny fowler!!
Md 31 was in production from 1931-1949 with approx. 160,000 made
Md 12 (1912-1964) however the production numbers from 1931-1949 were 607,046. Allmost 4 times as many Md 12's made. Hmmmmm sounds like the choice was already made by the demand at the time.

Md 12 made in 4 gauges, Md 31 in 3 gauges
Md 12 Trap came in 3 gauges, Md 31 12 ga. only
Md 12 Skeet, came in 4 gauges, Md 31 2 gauges, (12 & 20)
Md 12 hand engraved, Md 31 Scroll Engraved, (stamped)

Over all you had more choices to choose from when you ordered a Md 12 (options) than a Md 31.

Like I said at first, the demand at the time (1931-1949) shows which one people chose, I don't think it has changed much today.

Regards to all

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 8:50 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:19 am
Posts: 1665
Location: Columbia, SC
marist89 wrote:
Gimme a Ithaca 37 anyday!


Got a 12 ga and a 20 ga - great guns.

I have one made in 1975 with the s/n 1,408,xxx. I also have one made in 1946 with s/n 112,xxx. I'm not sure what their final production quantity was...oops...they're in production again. The model 37 just keeps on ticking and ticking and ticking...


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:54 pm 
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Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 3:07 am
Posts: 1787
Location: Paris,Illinois
12--------12--------------12---------------------12----------------12---------------------------


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 6:57 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:44 pm
Posts: 93
31


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 Post subject: Re: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:03 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:52 pm
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Location: Ontario, Canada
only winchesters wrote:
Md 31 was in production from 1931-1949 with approx. 160,000 made
Md 12 (1912-1964) however the production numbers from 1931-1949 were 607,046. Allmost 4 times as many Md 12's made. Hmmmmm sounds like the choice was already made by the demand at the time.


The M12 was on the scene for two decades by the time the M31 came out. By that time it had established itself over the earlier pumps of the era in which it was introduced; its reputation was firmly established.

The M31 was introduced during the Great Depression, which was not the best time to introduce a consumer product.

WWII cut into civilian production.

After WWII, the writing was on the wall for the old, traditionally produced pump guns and production was terminated in 1949. (Winchester even saw this and started design on the 1200 in 1957, "The American Shotgun", David F. Butler, pg 126. If they started work on the design in 1957, I am sure they were thinking about it a few years before that.)

One gun was made over an 18 year period, the other over 50 years.

IMHO, these factors would have contributed to the lower volume of production on the M31.

If either was in such high demand today, they would still be in production now and people would pay the very high price for them that would be required to manufacture them.


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 Post subject: Re: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:33 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 12:43 pm
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Claydust wrote:
If either was in such high demand today, they would still be in production now and people would pay the very high price for them that would be required to manufacture them.


I don't think so. Walk into a Wal-Mart. That'll tell you everything you want to know about the average consumer. Anymore, people don't want to pay the premium for one product that'll last a lifetime, they want the cheap one that'll be replaced in four years. In my grandfather's basement is an old GE refrigerator. It's from the 50's minimum and probably closer to the 40's. It's still running, probably on the sole fact it's never been turned off. :D People don't want one great high quality refrigerator that will last 60 years. They want one that costs 1/4 as much that they'll have to replace six times in their lifetime. To say that, "If the Model 31 or 12 were that great, people would still want them and they'd still be paying the premium." I don't think that's accurate. People don't want great products anymore. They want replacable products. Toasters, TVs, can openers, microwaves, etc. That's just my humble uneducated opinion on it. :P

For the record, I inhereted a Model 12 and I love it.


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 7:58 am 
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Location: Michigan
In all honesty, I think the 870 is as good or better than either one..... :D

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:33 am 
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Well, well, well! Mr. Honesty himself chimed in! :shock:

I think it was Claydust that made the astute comment about if either one were in high demand today they would still be making them. Well in my perspective they MUST still be in high demand or why would they be commanding a price today some 50 to 60 years after production ceased, that is at least 3 to 10 times what they sold for new depending on condition. Try buying either a Model 31 or a Model 12 and see what it will cost you! Supply and demand, my friends! There ain't no more! One of my employees was at our local Cabela's the other day at noon when a widow lady came in with a pristine Model 31 16 ga and enquired about selling it to them. They offered her arround $200 for it. I say arround $200 because she also had a Marlin 39 and some other big bore rifle with her and they offered her $650 for the 3 of them. She was smart enough to leave. They watched her get into her vehicle and it had personalized plates on it but no one arround here recognizes the vehicle or the plate. Too bad, I don't really need a Model 31, but I'd give a lot more than $200 for one pristine with the original owners manual and such with it still.

BP

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 Post subject: Re: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:07 am 
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Location: Ontario, Canada
Hollywood_Heat wrote:
I don't think so. Walk into a Wal-Mart. That'll tell you everything you want to know about the average consumer. Anymore, people don't want to pay the premium for one product that'll last a lifetime, they want the cheap one that'll be replaced in four years.


That was my point, to some degree.

Hollywood_Heat wrote:
To say that, "If the Model 31 or 12 were that great, people would still want them and they'd still be paying the premium." I don't think that's accurate. People don't want great products anymore.


Some do but they are buying the various P, K and B guns. They will not pay the $1,500.00 to $2,500.00 (my estimate) for a new M12 or M31, made in the U.S., I'm not sure a lot of diehard fans of these guns would either.


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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:10 am 
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Model 12....and the love of my life, a good target grade Mod 42

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:16 am 
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Claydyst;

You speak of what you know not!

Try to buy a Model 12 new in the box in a grade anywhere comparable in grade to a B, P, or K gun. YOU are in for a BIG surprise! Real, real pricy! They sell too!

BP

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 Post subject: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 10:32 am 
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Location: Shingle Springs, CA
Good morning everyone! Hollywood has a valid point! When the cost of repairs, exceeds the cost of the same item new, the item becomes a throw away. Which as a society we've become. I want to say it started back in the 1960s, as we became more effiecent in manufacturing, able to lower prices on new items, followed by the importing of goods from over seas, the idea that you can get it fixed for less than what a new item cost went out the window.

Then again as technology advances some things become obsolete, VCRs have given way to CDs. TVs went to big Screen, Flat screen and now to plasma.

Firearms that our fathers and grandfathers had to choose from will always be in demand such as the Rem. 31 or the Md 12. With today manufacturing technology they can be produced at a reasonable cost. The Japanese prooved this when both Browning and USRA had special runs of the Md 42 and Md 12. Even with the Import/Tarriff cost added in. Dealer cost in the late 80s and early 90s for a Grade I was between $495-$499, at which time the Rem. 870 Wingmaster was running around $399.

I've said this before If Winchester, later USRAs would have kept a product line that made them famous, (pre-64 designs) instead of trying to compete in the low end market they would still be in business today. They failed to modernize the facility, in time, and the post 64 firearms for the most part never came close to the pre-64 quality or reliability. Winchester use to make top of the line lever and pump guns!! It's not a Chevy vs ford thing but rather Ford vs Lincoln or Chevy vs Cadillac.

Imagine a Md 31 or Md 12 today with choke tubes, or a camo finish, or a Sporting Clays version, made in the USA would it sell, sure it would!! Today we are a much more affluent society than 50 years ago. Meaning as an example my grandfather and father had 1 shotgun each (a Md 12) and one rifle each. How many gun owners today just have 1 ? Neither the Md 31 or Md 12 may appeal to those under 30 or so, but lets face it, I'm not under 30, I can afford to buy either one, and appreciate the true craftsmanship, quality of the design over what new today.

You'll never convince a old Remington lover that a Winchester is better, just like Winchester lover that a Remington is better. Both guns have a following, both may be priceless to thier owners.

Now all you people who want to throw them away, I'll take them!! :D

Regards to all

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: re: Best old school pump win. m12 or rem m31?
PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:56 am 
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Burnt Powder wrote:
Well, well, well! Mr. Honesty himself chimed in! :shock:

I think it was Claydust that made the astute comment about if either one were in high demand today they would still be making them. Well in my perspective they MUST still be in high demand or why would they be commanding a price today some 50 to 60 years after production ceased, that is at least 3 to 10 times what they sold for new depending on condition..........


And then.....

Quote:
Supply and demand, my friends! There ain't no more!
BP


Excuse me? Didn't you answer your own question? :D

All one has to do to get a shooter to pay top dollar for a gun is tell him that there aren't any more available.



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