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 Post subject: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:48 pm 
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Here is some pics of my Yamamoto Auto Pointer. A5guy has informed me (us) that it was never sold in the US and is a VERY rare find. Thought maybe some pics of a piece of Browning patent infringment history were in order!

Top is a Rem-11 with cutts comp. bottom is the yamamoto
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Top is Rem-11 bottom is Yamamoto. Notice the height difference in the receiver "hump"
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Top is Rem-11 bottom is Yamamoto. Notice cracked stock on the Yamamoto :(
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Yamamoto receiver
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Yamamoto on top, Rem-11 on bottom. Notice the lack of the "trigger guard long tang" that is on my remington, but lacking on the Yamamoto.
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I paid $150 at a local gun show. I went to cabelas with it today, and it wasnt in their book, and according to their online data base, Cabelas has never had a Yamamoto in stock. The guy said they can't buy it, due to the cracked stock.




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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:07 pm 
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Quote:
I went to cabelas with it today, and it wasnt in their book


There is an Auto-pointer listed in the Blue Book, but it is not the same gun. The one listed is gas operated.

Auto-Pointer
Previous trademark manufactured by Yamamoto Co. Formerly imported by Sloans.

Semi-auto shotgun - 12 or 20 ga., gas operated. Disc.

$145-275 depending on condition.


Again, that is not the same gun, even though it carries the same name.

The cracked stock can be fixed, it doesn't have to be replaced. There are people who specialize in repairs. I did a Google search on "gun stock repair" and this is just the first of many that showed up.
http://www.gunstockmaker.com/index.htm

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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 8:08 pm 
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I like it.
Except the chunky, uncontoured trigger guard. But I like Japanese sporting guns. They're usually very reliable and above average factory-made quality.


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 9:57 pm 
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A guy came out one night to our weekly skeet shoot last year with a Universal Auto Wing copy of an A-5. It had Italian proof marks just all over it. I've also owned more than one Savage Auto 5 clone, the neatest one being the 775 aluminum one. The Remington 11 is, of course, another clone. I understand Remington actually made some Browning Auto 5's right after WW2. The Franchi is something of an Auto 5, too, but it's not exactly a clone, anymore than an 11-48 Remington is. The same factory that made Auto 5's in Japan also made their own brands, but I don't think it's your Yamamoto. I have never seen or heard of your Yamamoto Auto 5 clone. Congratulations. It's $150 bargains like you got that keep me scouring the pawn shops and the little gun shops, because I'm just addicted to stuff like that :lol:


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:29 pm 
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In 1852 Commodore Matthew Perry anchored a naval squadron in Japan at Uraga Harbor. After meeting with terrified Japanese warlords, he left a small brass cannon as a gift. When he returned in 1854, he found a fortress bristling with improved replicas of the gun he'd left.

Thus began our relationship with Japan, and our continuing amazement at their ability to copy and develop our innovations.

That Yamamoto is very nice. Is it a shooter or a viewer?

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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2007 11:41 pm 
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I shot 8 rnds thru it... real tight choke! I'll mic it sometime


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:12 pm 
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My favorite A5 in my collection came from Afganistan. It was made in a dirt floored shop with the simplest tools from metal off of wrecked trucks and military vehicles. My cousin brought it to me when he ws in the Peace Corps there back in the 60's.
It is very crude with lots of file marks and a well fit pine stock. The barrel was obviously once some sort of pipe. I have never fired it and have no plans to do so.

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 Post subject: Re: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 1:30 pm 
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Location: Eugene, Orygun
A5guy wrote:
My favorite A5 in my collection came from Afganistan. It was made in a dirt floored shop with the simplest tools from metal off of wrecked trucks and military vehicles. My cousin brought it to me when he ws in the Peace Corps there back in the 60's.
It is very crude with lots of file marks and a well fit pine stock. The barrel was obviously once some sort of pipe. I have never fired it and have no plans to do so.

What people will do with whatever they have. Got pix?


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2007 4:47 pm 
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pics would be sweet!


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2007 12:58 am 
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Quote:
It had Italian proof marks just all over it.


This is what I have "Fabrique Nationale De Guerre" or something like that...too lazy to get up and actually look at what it says, lol. Good gun, It's the company that actually made all of the Belgian Browning...so I don't guess it's considered a copy...just made for another country, lol.


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 12:06 am 
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I have one of these Auto-Pointers also. Markings on the reciever are the same as those pictured above, AUTO-POINTER on the left side centered in the scroll, SSG NY, NY on the right in small print above the trigger. On the barrel, left side CHARLES DALY AUTO-POINTER 12 GA 2 3/4", on the right YAMAMOTO FIREARMS MFG CO KOCHI JAPAN.

Inside the forearm is the label showing the Charles Daly Auto-Pointer friction ring settings for light or heavy loads, basically the same as the Browning friction ring label

I gave $175 for mine. If it breaks down I am probably SOL, but if it is as dependable as the real thing it should run just about forever with just basic maintainence.

My questions, mainly for A-5guy if he checks back to this thread are: is the SSG NY, NY, the Sloans mentioned as importing the gas Auto-Pointer, did that company own the Charles Daly name at the time, and how did Golden Eagle figure in with SSG??? Where did you come up with the info you have posted, I would like to find out a little more if you could tel me where to look.

berg


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 4:34 pm 
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Barry Mendelson was an attorney in NY and a friend of our family. He represented Browning when Yamamoto tried to back door the Auto Pointer into the US. Yamamoto intended to use Golden Eagle, Sloans and,perhaps Marubeni to front the deal. It was always suspected that Miroku was behind the whole operation but this was never proven.

I had forgotten about Sloans. As I remember it was Sloans that actually brought some Auto Pointers into the US and that is when Mr. Mendelson got into the frey.

Unlike US and European gun companies, Japanese companies at that time tried any and all paths to infringe on US patents and distrubutor agreements. They would co-mingle their companies to that end. In one case, they even built O/U shotguns in a factory for some time and the tore the place down and left no records, just an empty lot. This is the reason that records of many of these guns are not to be found today. Browning and Winchester spent alot of time in court with a host of these companies. They never proved that Miroku was behind all of this and the A5s and Citoris were doing so well on the US market that the whole lawsuit wa finally abandon with the Japanese saving face but agreeing not to go forward with their master plan.

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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2007 5:36 pm 
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Short review of this gun in the 1973 G&A Annual. Seems to bear out what is mentioned above, including the distributor and the tight choke.


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 11:43 am 
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Thanks for the additional info.

berg


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 Post subject: re: PICS- Yamamoto Auto Pointer
PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2007 12:28 pm 
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I'm a lawyer in a little town, and the most important thing they taught me in law school about patents was to refer those clients really quick to a patent lawyer. The Juris Doctor degree entitles you to sit for the bar exam, and after you pass you can practice all areas of law, except two: patents and admiralty. Or so they told me back in 1983. But I did learn some neat things about patent law and guns.

John Browning's patents expired a long, long time ago. So why could Browning even think about going after Miroku for making a Yamamoto Auto Pointer? Aside from a contractual agreement with Miroku to not do such a thing, the reason is "trade dress" protection.

For a recent example, General Motors has sued the Studebacker Corporation (yeah, they are still around) for infringeing the "trade dress" of GM's Hummer series. Stude was wailing and saying----But how can you make a big expensive SUV and it NOT look like a box?

The classic example is the shape of the Coke bottle or the VW Beetle. Even if you don't or can't patent or trademark your product's shape, but you market your product and the public comes to rely on your product being a certain, distinctive shape, or even color, then a competitor can be restrained from copying the distinctive shape or color. Harley even tried to sue the Japanese motorcycle makers for copying the Harley "sound". There's an old US Supreme Court case that upheld violations by Spanish makers of Smith and Wesson revolver clones, even though the Spanish copies were clearly marked as Star, Astra, or whatever. And RCBS once sued Lee Precision over Lee using the color green to package reloading dies.

If anybody ever had a "trade dress" argument, it would be Browning for the old humpback Auto Five. The public sure sees every humpback as an Auto Five, or a copy therof.

I've often wondered how Colt ever lost "trade dress" protection for the 1873 Peacemaker, and the 1911 Auto. If you don't protect your rights in this area, you loose them, because eventually the public won't associate the shape with your product.

Anyway, I was taught that using a distinctive "trade dress" is one of the ways to extend your patent monopoly after the patent expires. I'll bet that's why Browning had such a cow over those Yamamotos. :D




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