ShotGunWorld Shotguns

It is currently Thu Dec 03, 2020 3:54 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:06 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
This past week was my gun season. I am happy to report that it was successful, although not all of our tags were filled. I was using my new 12 gauge USH and 3" Winchester Dual Bonds. Here's the story:

I was startled to hear what sounded like a squirrel running towards me in the leaf litter...while I was nodding off up in my treestand. It was actually a care-free buck, stomping right towards me across the field! He was about 30 yards away...I quickly cocked and raised the USH, aimed and shot. He kicked his hind legs nearly vertically in the air, and took off running. He apparently had no idea I was there because he ran right at me, bouncing off a tree only 1 foot from the one I was in. His legs became wobbly and he settled down about 30 yards from my stand, having run about 60 yards.

I seriously misjudged his size. He was quite large, and I needed help dragging him out of the woods!

Image

The entry hole was a clean 50 caliber circle. There was no exit hole. I was concerned that the slug hadn't performed well or that I had placed my shot poorly. Neither could be further from the truth!

The slug was recovered while gutting, in two pieces. This must be where the Dual Bond gets it's name... Both the inner copper jacketed lead bullet and the outer (brass?) casing were mushroomed completely.

Image

The slug just nicked the front left leg, passed through the ribs, through the heart, through the opposing ribs, and came to halt at the opposing hide. Two things struck me as important here:

Firstly, the Dual Bond's have impressive energy at 30 yards (~2500 ft-lbs), and that energy was transferred completely to the deer (hence the slug not exiting the deer). Now you don't want a slug to stop too soon, but stopping at the hide on the opposite side is just about perfect!

Secondly, the Dual Bond did truly impressive damage on it's way through. The heart was hardly recognizable during gutting. I think I even asked B-N what he thought it was! I am surprised that the buck ran 60 yards after this kind of damage.

Image

Also, the bruising and internal bleeding became readily visible after skinning.

The entry side:
Image


The 'exit' side:
Image


Image


Entry on the left, 'exit' on the right:
Image




Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:35 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 7:18 pm
Posts: 82
Quaid wrote:

Image

[/img]


Yes ladies and gentleman that is what remained of the heart, it literally came out in two pieces.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:14 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:28 am
Posts: 761
Location: SE Michigan
nice buck, and nice pics

only hunters can appreciate LOL

its amazing that they still go that far after an exploding heart

i have had more deer do same thing after good heart shots

run , run than flop gun or bow

i am impressed with expansion, bugged on not exiting the far side it was only 30 yards


i like holes on both side just in case makes following easier

JD


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:43 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:13 pm
Posts: 163
Location: ohio
yep....that looks pretty nasty. winchester prob wouldnt like the complete seperation of the two pieces for a photo, but that is some massive internal devistation.

_________________
live and die by shades of grey


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 2:45 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
RolexDr. wrote:
...i am impressed with expansion, bugged on not exiting the far side it was only 30 yards


i like holes on both side just in case makes following easier

JD



Thank you for bringing this up. B-N and I discussed this a little bit. Complete penetration is certainly not required for speedy fatality. B-N asked me "What if it had hit the shoulder bone?". I am confident it would have penetrated at least 1 shoulder bone, but maybe not 2. The extent of the shockwave-induced hemoraging tells me that the transfer of energy would be quite lethal in the vicinity of the bullet's path, without the bullet having to actually cut the required damage.

So, I have no concerns about the lethality of the slug out to 100, or even 150 yards. Heck, even if you could shoot it accurately at 200 yards I believe you would be happy with the lethality.

HOWEVER, as you brought up, the blood trail can be better with 2 holes rather than 1. This buck had only 1 clean 50 caliber hole. He left a fairly distinct blood trail through that little hole, on tree trunks, leaves, everything. I would expect a similar blood trail at any distance. There will be extensive internal bleeding, and only 1 hole from which it will flow.

B-N then asked me, since we are 'meat hunters', if we would be better off using copper solids next year. They don't expand much in deer, and punch clean through. I would expect 2 holes with lots of internal bleeding, but perhaps at a slower rate than with the Dual Bonds. The key thing being less meat damage, though.

However, the copper solids are less forgiving with shot placement. The shockwave from the Dual Donds caused dramatic damage over a fairly large area. The Copper Solids did less dramatic internal damage, punching a cleaner hole right through the animal.

A heart shot is a heart shot, and dead is dead. We would have recovered more meat if I had shot that buck with a copper solid in exactly the same spot. Admitedly there is minimal meat loss in the chest area, but it is still a quantifiable loss. So the question then becomes one of shot placement accuracy at distance X. In this regard the Dual Bonds trumped the Copper Solids during my brief testing in my USH.

If the Copper Solids dropped from $22/box this year, back to the $14/box they were last year, I would consider switching to them even with the reduced accuracy and range. However, since the Dual Bonds are also $22/box, I do not think the minimal loss of meat is worth the increased reliance on exacting shot placement.

In other words, I would rather have the forgiveness from dramatic internal damage than the extra little bit of meat from the chest area.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:08 pm 
Tournament Grade
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 10:13 pm
Posts: 163
Location: ohio
i wonder how that bullet would have looked at 100 or 150 after some of the velocity had been shed. i have a feeling this bullet was made to perform on game at longer ranges. it obviously did a marvelous job and stopping that buck at 30yds. i agree with your thoughts on it penetrating a shoulder bone, but dont think you would have had anywhere near the internal contact damage. the energy transfer prob would have anchored him right there though. the more bullets are tinkered with, i feel like they become more and more "range" specific. that doesnt mean i think they wont kill at any range, but rather i think they are made to work at their optimum at a specific range which translates to velocity. i know blood trails are nice, but a quick kill i think is more important. a well place shot like you said is worth more than the best bullet. if one goes down relatively quick, finding him should not be a problem. but, alas, we are shooting shotguns and i am just an "average" slug shooter so placement isnt always perfect. its a cat and mouse game because of that.

_________________
live and die by shades of grey


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:21 pm 
Field Grade
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 8:56 am
Posts: 96
Location: central illinois
Quaid
Thanks for posting this I always enjoy reading on how a bullet performs. One hole or two that was total devastion to the heart/lungs.
Illinideer


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:55 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:24 pm
Posts: 66
i don't like how they seperated. a bonded bullet shouldn't do that. i wonder what the weight retention was


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:03 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
The bullet probably qouldn't have separated at longer distances. I don't have an accurate scale around, but I still have the bullet pieces to weigh if I come across a scale.

If you look at how the bullets mushroomed, the inner bullet mushroomed completely and then back on itself. This no doubt pushed the outer casing off of the inner bullet.

I don't understand why this bothers you though. It's not like the bullet separated during flight. It was a product of the energy transfer during mushrooming and penetration IN the buck.

Again, you can assume that there would be less dramatic mushrooming at greater distances. This means the inner bullet would be less likely to push off the outer bullet.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:24 pm
Posts: 66
the whole concept of a bonded bullet is to be stronger and not break apart to maintain near 100% weight retention. why? for deeper penetration. both of which you didn't experience. i'd be intereested to hear what winchester would have to say about that. If it where me i'd email them the pics. if for nothing else for customer feedback on there new product from some in field experience besides the prototypes.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:22 pm 
Crown Grade
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:08 pm
Posts: 3430
Location: Hudson River...NY/NJ
Quiad,

As you may know I target tested those slugs this spring before they hit the market.

Accordingly, I believe I still have access to the folks in the marketing and engineering dept if you would like me to forward them the pics for informational purposes.

JC


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:11 pm 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:28 am
Posts: 761
Location: SE Michigan
hey quaid

i hiope it did not come across as knocking the lack of blood trail i just have had a few issues in past with bad blood trails


I had one few weeks back arrow complete pass thru pulled insides out thue low hole not a drop of blood from hit to deer when we recovered it

had blood at impact and on arrow but the shot was so close it was high and deer did not fill up enough to bleed out on the ground the deer was dead with in seconds of the arrow going thru the lung and liver but the vanes pulled guts out thru the hole and stopped it like a plug

i again am not knocking the performance of the shot and slug it was awesome

i do not like the copper soilds (had 3 bad experiences with them when 1st came out they never opened up just punched holes and lost 2 deer) now i know they changed the bullet since then but it left bad taste in my mouth

i shoot powerbelts in my 2 MLs and they are accurate but i keep having issues with bullet blowing up and not exiting leaving only one hole (long story for different thread)

i am curious to see what the dual bond will do at more then 30 yards i know my powerbelts exploded at 18 yards last year and i found shards in the deer, but at 186 yards i had great expansion and penetration and performance, i was told it was due to im pushing bullet to fast so at range its slower and can perform not blow up


I am geeked to test my new slug gun sunday here in MI for the opener never thought to buy the dual bond one

im shooting lightfields (gun did not like the copper solids as well as light fields )


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:28 pm 
Limited Edition

Joined: Thu May 11, 2006 10:03 pm
Posts: 310
Location: NW Ohio
Some of the deer I have hit in the heart have ran the hardest after the shot, not far, perhaps 30 to 35 yards, but hard until they drop. I have no medical training so I do not know why that is but it seems to occur. This is from a standing deer initially.
Other locations seem to anchor them more quickly but certainly a heart shot deer is a dead deer pretty quickly, they just not seem to know it immediately.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:09 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
jims wrote:
Some of the deer I have hit in the heart have ran the hardest after the shot, not far, perhaps 30 to 35 yards, but hard until they drop. I have no medical training so I do not know why that is but it seems to occur. This is from a standing deer initially.
Other locations seem to anchor them more quickly but certainly a heart shot deer is a dead deer pretty quickly, they just not seem to know it immediately.


Yes, I've heard this. Also not sure of the exact physiological mechanisms behind the phenomenon.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:17 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
whereemout wrote:
the whole concept of a bonded bullet is to be stronger and not break apart to maintain near 100% weight retention. why? for deeper penetration. both of which you didn't experience. i'd be intereested to hear what winchester would have to say about that. If it where me i'd email them the pics. if for nothing else for customer feedback on there new product from some in field experience besides the prototypes.


I'll try and get a scale to weigh the pieces to determine weight retention.

I'm not sure it's fair to judge this bullet by the standards of other bonded bullets. It might be better to determine what the goals of the unique design is, then judge it based on those qualities.

Is this particular outer casing bonded design designed for penetration and weight retention specifically? The advertising seems to point to doubling the number of mushrooming 'petals' to increase energy transfer. This would decrease penetration, I think. There is a desirable balance between penetration and energy transfer which is different for each target animal. You want enough of each, but an increase in one can decrease the other.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:29 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
jcchartboy wrote:
Quiad,

As you may know I target tested those slugs this spring before they hit the market.

Accordingly, I believe I still have access to the folks in the marketing and engineering dept if you would like me to forward them the pics for informational purposes.

JC


Hey JC, if you think they would be interested then please forward the post/pictures.

Since my purpose with this post was for sharing information and learning, I would love to hear some input from the engineering dept. Is this typical of the Dual Bond performance? Is the separation problematic, or by design? What does their test data suggest about performance at 30 yards (my experience) versus performance at 150 yards? If there's an opportunity for getting some feedback or input along those lines, then I would be elated.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: 12 gauge Winchester Dual Bond field report *IMAGE HEAVY*
PostPosted: Tue Nov 10, 2009 1:34 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2009 4:19 am
Posts: 626
RolexDr. wrote:
hey quaid

i hiope it did not come across as knocking the lack of blood trail i just have had a few issues in past with bad blood trails


I had one few weeks back arrow complete pass thru pulled insides out thue low hole not a drop of blood from hit to deer when we recovered it

had blood at impact and on arrow but the shot was so close it was high and deer did not fill up enough to bleed out on the ground the deer was dead with in seconds of the arrow going thru the lung and liver but the vanes pulled guts out thru the hole and stopped it like a plug

i again am not knocking the performance of the shot and slug it was awesome

i do not like the copper soilds (had 3 bad experiences with them when 1st came out they never opened up just punched holes and lost 2 deer) now i know they changed the bullet since then but it left bad taste in my mouth

i shoot powerbelts in my 2 MLs and they are accurate but i keep having issues with bullet blowing up and not exiting leaving only one hole (long story for different thread)

i am curious to see what the dual bond will do at more then 30 yards i know my powerbelts exploded at 18 yards last year and i found shards in the deer, but at 186 yards i had great expansion and penetration and performance, i was told it was due to im pushing bullet to fast so at range its slower and can perform not blow up


I am geeked to test my new slug gun sunday here in MI for the opener never thought to buy the dual bond one

im shooting lightfields (gun did not like the copper solids as well as light fields )



Not offended or feeling defensive. I was just trying to explore the idea of lethality and production of blood trail. Thank you for contributing your experiences and thoughts!




Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 6 hours [ DST ]


Who is online

Registered users: 2lo8s, 58PERAZZI, albanygun, Bad English, Bing [Bot], cheesy1, cole1, cookoff013, Curly N, Dbl Auto, DblXX, Denver1911, fishrising, Fluke, Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], greenhornet, hopper810, IANative, icyclefar, Jaspo01, jcbabb, jeffreyk, kenhwind, leftex, Luvthemtorts, map17, Markepilot, md2020, Mr.Jeem, msmith, NoDak Scotty, oyeme, Patently Obvious, pjmx, popcorn09, railroad, Ravenanme, RMc, Road Man, Rooster booster, Rudolph31, saskbooknut, shacked, sherpa guide, Silver, Skip1sr1101, Solid Hit, Steeler [Crawler], strut64, SWPAMike, Tailchaser, Tex68W, The Rattler, Tidefanatic, TOM-M, twin rivers, Twodog, Woodsie131


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group    - DMCA Notice