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 Post subject: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 1:54 pm 
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I am looking for information on "sleeved barrels" I understand what they are, but not sure how to tell if the barrels have been sleeved. Also not sure on how that effects the load that can be shot through them. Do the barrels have to be reproofed, and what if they are not?

Thanks ahead of time.

Goldhky



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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 3:36 pm 
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Nigel Teague in the U.K. is a master at re-sleeving barrels and he works on some of the rarest and most expensive English doubles in existance. He is very, very good at this art. Re-sleeving is usually done to salvage a pitted or ortherwise damaged barrel. You can look him up on the internet and then contact him with your questions. I have found him to be very personable and helpful. He also makes some of the best custom chokes in the world.
Good luck

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 4:56 pm 
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These folks advertise the service and offer a brief description

http://www.woodcockhill.com/work.htm

Briley advertises $1750 for most o/u and sxs guns. They don't discuss proofing on the website however.

Griffen and Howe says:

"134. Sleeved bbls - An economical method of bringing new life to a damaged pair of barrels, regardless of their original method of jointing. The ribs are removed. The barrels are cut off 3" - 4" from the breech end and discarded. The bores of the remaining breech-end are reamed out oversize. New tubes are fitted down into the original breech section and filed down to fit flush. The original ribs are then replaced.

Sleeving is considerably less expensive than building a completely new set of barrels. Much of the time required to build a set of barrels is concentrated in the fitting of the breech end to the receiver; this work is salvaged through sleeving. Sleeving can be recognized by a pair of circumferential lines around the barrels a few inches from the breech; the more invisible, the finer the job. A sleeved gun should always be identified as such amongst the proof marks, and if done in England must be properly reproofed."

Which sounds like there is no requirement for proofing in the US.

John

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 6:25 pm 
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I thought a sleeve went on the outside and a liner went on the inside.


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:13 am 
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The English gunmakers look down their noses at Monobloc barrels. Yet when the time comes to repair their Chopper Lump barrels they use Sleeving which in effect turns Chopper Lump barrels into Monobloc, with a difference: the Monobloc has three main pieces, the Sleeved Chopper Lumps has four main pieces- the two brazed parts of the original breech ends plus the two tubes.

Ergo- buy Monobloc barreled guns to begin with and enjoy the advantage of easy and reliable repairs if and when needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:22 am 
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Certainly in the UK sleeved barrels have to be marked 'sleeved' and then reproofed. A good sleeving job is as sound as anything else and if properly done you will not see the sleeving joint.
Ultimately its a near as dammit a monobloc set up as described by shotgunguru and there should be no 'new' restriction on the load you can use.


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 2:04 pm 
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In regard to the question how to tell if barrels have been sleeved, as stated by others, there will be a circumferential ring a few inches forward of the breech. These rings may resemble the rings found on the barrels of a monobloc gun (some makers of monobloc guns may add light decorative engraving to cover the rings). Because of this visual similarity, it may be possible for an uninformed buyer or casual observer to mistake one for the other.

I suspect that the majority of sleeving work is performed on older, higher end doubles originally fitted with chopper lump barrels. It is my understanding that reproving of sleeved barrels is manditory in the U.K. and such barrels can be readily identified by examination of proof and other marks on the barrel flats, as well as, the circumferential rings on the barrels. Can anyone confirm if other CIP member states also reproof and otherwise identify sleeved barrels?

When sleeving is done in the USA, any such marking is voluntary and may not be present. However, if the sleeving has been done on a gun originally fitted with chopper lump barrels and not reproved or marked, it is possible to distinguish those sleeved barrels from a monobloc by inspection of the under lugs. The lugs of chopper lump barrels will have a fine joint line where the barrel lugs were originally joined. This line will not be present on a monobloc. Therefore, circumferential rings on the barrels + a joint line on the underlugs = sleeved barrels.

Further to shotgunguru's comments, the noted British shotgun authority, Gough Thomas, has said that the chopper lump is the stongest and preferred method of making barrels as the lump is forged integrally with the barrels. However, he also believed that due to the latitude in design and choice of materials permited, the monobloc "...is arguably the best of all methods of assembling the barrels of a double gun.".





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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 4:22 pm 
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How is "Gough" pronounced - as in "go" or "goff" or "goukh"?

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 5:37 pm 
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To see an example of proper "English" sleeving take a look at http://www.holtsauctioneers.co.uk. Go to Archives for Sealed Bid Sale 08 Jan 2010 and find Lot 2821. This gun is now in my cabinet along with a couple of other 'sleevers' and there is no sign of a joint line on any of them, neither have they been engraved to hide it.

I still have not figured out how to put pics up on here.


Last edited by Sans Peur on Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 7:14 pm 
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Sans Peur,

Thank you for the link, unfortunately I can not access it. Regarding the engraving mentioned in my post, I was referring only to the engraving employed by makers of new monobloc doubles; not sleeved doubles. FWIW, sleeved doubles appear to be a bit of a rarity on this side of the pond.
I would welcome an opportunity to view a proper English sleeved double to see how the appearance of the joint is minimized.

Regards,

Doppelflinten



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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 3:04 am 
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Changed the link - should work now. Doh :?


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 7:00 am 
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Pumpster wrote:
How is "Gough" pronounced - as in "go" or "goff" or "goukh"?



That would be "goff" Frank. As in cough or trough.

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 8:33 am 
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Thnx.

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:55 pm 
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Sans Peur,

Thanks for the updated link. Nice gun ! Wow.... I had to look under magnification and could not find the joint line of the sleeved barrels ! Who did the sleeving?

Looking at some of the other auction items, I noticed a Westley Richards with sleeved barrels ( #2851 ) where, again under magnification, the sleeved joint was barely perceptible. I'm familiar with the induction brazing of barrels to a monobloc and the various welding processes for butt joints but, I'm intrigued as to how the sleever acomplishes the almost invisible joint.

Regards,

Doppelflinten


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 10:12 pm 
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Thanks for all the post guys. I was looking at an old British SXS, and was afraid it might be sleeved. After reading these posts, and some additional info, and looking at more close up pictures I don't believe it is sleeved. My fear was it was done here, and never reproofed.

Again thanks for the info, and keep the thread alive. {hs#

Goldhky

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Sat Apr 03, 2010 2:34 am 
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On that Holts gun I do not know who sleeved it but he certainly knew his business. I am still trying to figure out why it was priced so cheaply as apart from a bit of rust around the action I can find no fault with it. Maybe the lack of choke and the " no name".

Back to sleeving, I have seen quite a few guns where the join was very obvious but many more where it was invisible. All down to the skill and patience of the gunsmith so far as I know.


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 11:12 am 
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Teague also has a process where they line the barrels. I assume they also still do it the old fashioned way. The lining is often done to preserve the damascus finish on high dollar damascus guns. I have been told that you can sleeve a gun to even handle steel. The rest of the gun would have to be up to that standard as well, obviously. Damascus guns have been reproofed for 10 ga. 3.5" ammo in England. These were guns originally built for the 3.5" 10.


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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2010 12:33 pm 
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Sleeving and not leaving a joint is a matter of appropriate radiusing of the breech and the tubes. With the proper radius the two surfaces kind of "mash" into each other and there is no visible joint.

But still, a sleeved chopper lump will be composed of 4 pieces, a sleeved dovetail lump of 5 pieces. My choice is for the Monobloc, in which as Doppelflinten observed, the pieces can be made of the right type of steel for the job they will perform- harder wearing steel for the monobloc, softer more malleable steel for the barrel tubes. And repairing them is childs play compared to sleeving.

In at least one Monobloc gun, the Baby Bretton, you can unscrew the barrel tubes by hand and change them yourself. Now that is repairability.

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:19 am 
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Goldhky

Just by way of clarification .....

Barrel sleeving. This is done when the barrels are defective or damaged, but the chambers, ejectors, and action hook are sound. The barrels are cut off about 3" from the breech face, leaving a stub which carries the chambers and hook. The stub is then counter bored to take the new barrels. Sometimes the joint line is left showing, (even engraved) sometimes it's invisible, it all depends on the degree of skill and pernickityness of the gun smith, and how much money he has in the job. Because the new tubes may not have the same profile as the originals, handling may be affected.

Barrel relining This is a way of retaining the outer shape and in the case of Damascus, the figure, of barrels that are for some reason considered unsafe or out of Proof. The whole barrel length is bored out and a modern steel liner fitted in. The gun winds up as nearly as possible looking like it should, having also the original handling characteristics.

Chamber sleeving Used when the chambers are rusted beyond safe limits or practical use but the bores are OK. The chamber is reamed out back to clean metal, a steel liner inserted and the whole thing internally profiled.

If any of these procedures are conducted in UK the gun has to be submitted to Re-Proof, and will be stamped accordingly. To the best of my knowledge only Teague is doing relines, but I'm open to correction.

If the work is done in the US there is I think, no need for Reproof, indeed you have no Statutory system anyway.
Eug

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 Post subject: Re: Tell me about "Sleeved" barrels
PostPosted: Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:20 am 
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Just confirming what ugene says about relining - Teague is the only one offering this service.
I had a quote of £1500 (about $2250) to do a middle of the road boxlock a couple of months ago. At that kind of money I think you need to be thinking top line guns to start with. :shock:




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