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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:26 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 8:21 pm
Posts: 249
Location: NJ
I have been shooting factory loads Federals, Remington's, with no troubles, And reload the Remington's with 209 s PRIMERS also no troubles.



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Browning 725 HR Adjustable 32"12ga
Benelli S Sport 32"12ga
Remington 1187SP 32"12ga
Caesar Guerini Summit Trap Combo 32/34"
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Ithaca Gun 36"12g
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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2021 10:35 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
Ulysses wrote:
Yep. You got it. Noticed it many years ago.


pretty disappointing so see that design as it is pretty basic mechanics. Are other O/U's designed that way? I thought the 725 was supposed to be such a great gun but it seems to have at least this one design flaw and maybe all the problems with the lower pin are at least partially related to this.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 12:36 am 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
So maybe this is a topic for another thread but maybe going forward I should mostly use the top barrel and only use the lower one for doubles. Is there any criteria for using one barrel over the the other? A guy at my club this morning said most folks mostly use the lower barrel. Seems like the wrong choice for Citori knowing what I know know.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:41 am 
Limited Edition
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:24 pm
Posts: 440
Location: South Central Pennsylvania
rhodesengr wrote:
So maybe this is a topic for another thread but maybe going forward I should mostly use the top barrel and only use the lower one for doubles. Is there any criteria for using one barrel over the the other? A guy at my club this morning said most folks mostly use the lower barrel. Seems like the wrong choice for Citori knowing what I know know.


Top barrel is my preference, and I think it makes a lot of sense for a Citori.

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Citori 725 Skeet 12/28"
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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:08 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
28ga. wrote:
rhodesengr wrote:
So maybe this is a topic for another thread but maybe going forward I should mostly use the top barrel and only use the lower one for doubles. Is there any criteria for using one barrel over the the other? A guy at my club this morning said most folks mostly use the lower barrel. Seems like the wrong choice for Citori knowing what I know know.


Top barrel is my preference, and I think it makes a lot of sense for a Citori.


yup based on what I now know


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 6:49 pm 
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Many Citori's have 20K to 30K rounds through them and still have the original firing pins in them. I know because I own two of them like that that I bought brand new. I shoot whatever ammo I can buy.

I don't particularly care for Fiocchi shells but have shot a bunch of them in the past. I've shot tons of Remington, Winchester, Federal, Estate (Federal), and many more that I don't even recall right now, and my Citoris are still going strong with the original firing pins.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:01 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
Ulysses wrote:
Many Citori's have 20K to 30K rounds through them and still have the original firing pins in them. I know because I own two of them like that that I bought brand new. I shoot whatever ammo I can buy.

I don't particularly care for Fiocchi shells but have shot a bunch of them in the past. I've shot tons of Remington, Winchester, Federal, Estate (Federal), and many more that I don't even recall right now, and my Citoris are still going strong with the original firing pins.


so how then to explain why some of us see short lower pin lifetime? The guy I talked to at Browning essentially admitted it is a known problem because he blamed it on Cheddite primers.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 8:21 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
I have a 1982 Citori Skeet that has seen many thousands of rounds thru the years and it still has the original pins. That shotgun mostly shot reloads using Winchester and CCI primers. Around 1995 I got another Citori - this one is an Ultra Sporter and it too shot mostly reloads with Win and CCI with not problems. Then - - - I started shooting factory shells and shot a lot of RIO shells. That's when I noticed pierced primers, chipped firing pins, & FTF. I replaced the Browning pins with J&P and kept shooting RIO ammo. Same problem. Then I read about the hard primer problem and so I put in some more J&P pins and switched to Gun Clubs and Top Guns that have primers with soft copper primer covers. Now, no more pierced primers or chipped firing pins.

All the Citori designs go back to the John Moses Browning Superposed design which worked well for a long time when ammo mfg all used soft copper primer covers. JMB could not anticipate ammo and primer mfg using poorly designed primers with hard, brittle steel covers. Browning does produce the newer Cynergy action and I have not heard of this issue with them (maybe they do). I prefer the older classic Citori action and it's easy (in most years) to simply choose US made inexpensive promo ammo instead of the Euro produced ammo. For primers, just spend the little extra and get Win 209. I know now we don't always have a choice. If that's the case, shoot what you can and just keep replacing your pins with the less expensive Browning pins. Considering their cost and how easy it is to replace them, it's not that big a deal. I just wish ammo/primer mfg would stop using hard, brittle steel primer covers.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 9:28 pm 
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rhodesengr wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
Many Citori's have 20K to 30K rounds through them and still have the original firing pins in them. I know because I own two of them like that that I bought brand new. I shoot whatever ammo I can buy.

I don't particularly care for Fiocchi shells but have shot a bunch of them in the past. I've shot tons of Remington, Winchester, Federal, Estate (Federal), and many more that I don't even recall right now, and my Citoris are still going strong with the original firing pins.


so how then to explain why some of us see short lower pin lifetime? The guy I talked to at Browning essentially admitted it is a known problem because he blamed it on Cheddite primers.


I don't attempt to explain what other people experience or the decisions they make. There are too many variables involved in each person's personal experience and decisions. All I can do is tell you what my experience has been.

You might also keep in mind that very few people are motivated to tell about their good experiences with products. However, if a person has a bad experience, he's often motivated to tell the world.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Sun Apr 04, 2021 11:13 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
twohigh wrote:
switched to Gun Clubs and Top Guns that have primers with soft copper primer covers. Now, no more pierced primers or chipped firing pins.


I have only shot commercial shells. 95% Top Gun and a few cases of Herters (no idea what is in those). That's it. Nothing else has gone in my 725. I was shooting TopGun when I first noticed FTF.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:38 am 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
The most common problem with Citori FTF is a shorten pin due to damage, as has been explained. If you do not see signs of damage to the tip of your pin or if you have not noticed pierced primers (you'll see a black residue around your primer pocket) then it is entirely possible that your Citori just has a short and out of spec lower firing pin. If that is the case, then getting the J&P pins and continuing to shoot Top Guns you shouldn't have any further problems. If you do continue have FTF with the J&P pins, replace your hammer spring for the lower barrel at least.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:05 am 
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My 525 Sporting in 16 gauge needed the 20 gauge (sub-gauge) firing pins.

Bob

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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 1:50 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
well I just replaced the lower pin and spring. I have to say, there is no visible damage to the pin.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:38 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:24 pm
Posts: 440
Location: South Central Pennsylvania
If you have a good magnifying glass to look closely you may be surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:45 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 6:28 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Skeet and Trap Fields
rhodesengr wrote:
well I just replaced the lower pin and spring. I have to say, there is no visible damage to the pin.


Ok, so, the FTF does not seem to be due to any damage so either the original pin was a little short or the original hammer spring was under-powered. Let us know if your problem has been corrected using the same ammo.

I do want to mention that ammo can be a problem as well. A couple years ago I had FTFs and the problem was found to be defective Rem Gun Club ammo. Speaking to their customer service people they admitted they had a bad batch of primers. They had me ship the remaining boxes of that lot # and replaced them with a full flat. I never had a similar problem again. I have also seen a few FTFs using factory ammo where the primer was seated too deeply.

In my experience damage to the firing pins sufficient to cause FTF is pretty obvious.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 2:48 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
28ga. wrote:
If you have a good magnifying glass to look closely you may be surprised.

actually I have a stereo microscope and I really don't see anything. There is a small area of discoloration on the side just down from the tip but the tip looks unblemished.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 6:23 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:08 am
Posts: 2499
Location: Central NH
Firing pin erosion from pierced primers is obvious under any magnifying glass.

If there's no erosion, then look for a weak spring, or dirty firing pin channels.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Mon Apr 05, 2021 7:27 pm 
Field Grade

Joined: Tue May 12, 2020 10:17 am
Posts: 91
maybe some of the topgun rounds were somehow less sensitive than usual. Both the pin and spring are new and replaced but I plan to mostly shoot the upper barrel now for singles.


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:46 pm 
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Many also shoot the lower barrel first, so when shooting a lot of singles and less doubles, the lower pin get much more use.

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New York, New York & Sag Harbor, New York


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 Post subject: Re: Citori 725 Under Firing Pin length
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 2:24 pm
Posts: 440
Location: South Central Pennsylvania
Just went through 4 boxes of Rio's on the skeet field today...bought a flat online a while back to try again...2 to 3 pierced primers per box and the lower pin has a mark on it. Gonna finish the flat, using only the top barrel for singles, and there will be no more...shame, because they work great and shoot clean. Did have one blooper; evidently little to no powder in the shell...thankfully everything puked out of the barrel.



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