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 Post subject: Question about my turkish over under action (pic included)
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 2:39 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Attachment:
Action-desc.jpg

I'm trying to learn more about maintaining my own firearms.

This is my newly acquired Tristar over under, about 6 years old, sporting model. I bought it from a guy who says he shot it only a handful of times and it was collecting dust in his safe. I made him an offer and now its sitting in my safe.

I've never taken a gun apart before, so I stripped off the hardware, cleaned and oiled it good. It shoots and functions fine. I see no wear at all on the firing pins, so maybe he was telling the truth.

Now I have some questions for those who actually know something

1. Did I label all the components correctly? I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about

2. The trigger pull on this gun is "significant". Am I feeling the tension from the sear spring (?) on the trigger pull? Would a lighter spring relieve some of the tension? Why do some over/unders not have a spring like this gun does?

3. The gun is really stiff while cocking it after shooting. Opening the gun obviously forces the cocking lever to push back on the hammer. But there is a lot of tension there.
Its too much tension for my niece and she can't open it. I actually have to use some brite force to get it to open up. Is it possible that there is too much tension on the hammer springs? Can I back off that tension using that threaded adjuster? Obviously a certain amount of tension is required... but can I loosen it a little?

4. Assuming that the gun really hasn't been shot, I would imagine it still needs to be shot more often to break in properly. that could be the reasone for the stiffness. My question is... If I don't adjust the tension on the hammer springs,, do they eventually loosen up with firing. My goal is to turn the lever to the right and have the barrel fall down and the empty shells retract.


Thanks for any tips. I am trying to learn.




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Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 3:27 pm 
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md2020 wrote:
Attachment:
Action-desc.jpg

I'm trying to learn more about maintaining my own firearms.

This is my newly acquired Tristar over under, about 6 years old, sporting model. I bought it from a guy who says he shot it only a handful of times and it was collecting dust in his safe. I made him an offer and now its sitting in my safe.

I've never taken a gun apart before, so I stripped off the hardware, cleaned and oiled it good. It shoots and functions fine. I see no wear at all on the firing pins, so maybe he was telling the truth.

Now I have some questions for those who actually know something

1. Did I label all the components correctly? I want to make sure I know what I'm talking about

It appears that you have the parts labeled correctly although I can't see the cocking lever very clearly, but I think that's what it is.

2. The trigger pull on this gun is "significant". Am I feeling the tension from the sear spring (?) on the trigger pull? Would a lighter spring relieve some of the tension? Why do some over/unders not have a spring like this gun does?

Pulling the trigger will push up on the tail of the sear. Several factors determine how much effort this requires. The strength of the sear spring is one of those things. Also, the angle of engagement and the friction between the sear and hammer are two more things. There's likely a trigger return spring in there that is yet another factor. As far as I know, all guns of this type have a sear spring. If they didn't, there would be nothing but gravity to hold the sear in the hammer notch.

3. The gun is really stiff while cocking it after shooting. Opening the gun obviously forces the cocking lever to push back on the hammer. But there is a lot of tension there.
Its too much tension for my niece and she can't open it. I actually have to use some brite force to get it to open up. Is it possible that there is too much tension on the hammer springs? Can I back off that tension using that threaded adjuster? Obviously a certain amount of tension is required... but can I loosen it a little?

I doubt that there is too much force on the hammer spring. You need a lot there to guarantee a hard hit on the firing pin. I wouldn't reduce the tension much if at all. I can't see that nut clearly to know exactly what it does other than hold the spring on. With the gun fully assembled but empty, try cocking the hammers. Then close the gun completely and open it a second time. Any resistance that you need to open the gun the second time has nothing to do with cocking the hammers because they are already cocked. You may need to do a little polishing on the barrel lug to reduce friction at the knuckle/forend iron juncture.


4. Assuming that the gun really hasn't been shot, I would imagine it still needs to be shot more often to break in properly. that could be the reasone for the stiffness. My question is... If I don't adjust the tension on the hammer springs,, do they eventually loosen up with firing. My goal is to turn the lever to the right and have the barrel fall down and the empty shells retract.

Repeated use will "eventually" loosen the gun up, but sometimes that can take a looooong time. Post a side view of the barrels without the forend, a rear view (closeup) of the forend, and a front view (closeup) of the receiver without the barrels on it and we can talk some more.

Thanks for any tips. I am trying to learn.


My comments in red above.

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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 4:59 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Here are a few more pics. Freshly greased, I need to clean it up a bit


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Browning Citori 725 Sporting
Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 5:44 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Ulysses wrote:

I doubt that there is too much force on the hammer spring. You need a lot there to guarantee a hard hit on the firing pin. I wouldn't reduce the tension much if at all. I can't see that nut clearly to know exactly what it does other than hold the spring on. With the gun fully assembled but empty, try cocking the hammers. Then close the gun completely and open it a second time. Any resistance that you need to open the gun the second time has nothing to do with cocking the hammers because they are already cocked. You may need to do a little polishing on the barrel lug to reduce friction at the knuckle/forend iron juncture.



About this statemement...

1. The tension I feel is when both barrels have been fired and I attempt to open the action. I feel less tension when only one is fired, but still a lot. I feel absolutely no tension at all if neither barrel has been fired.

2. If I hold the gun straight out and release the top lever with my thumb, the barrel should fall and the action should fully open, and the ejectors should deploy, even if both barrels have been fired. It does not. I have to grab the barrel and yank it down with some force. Less force is required if only one barrel has been fired, regardless of which one. The action fully opens with the weight of the barrels if neither has been fired.

3. Doesnt the hammer spring produce the tension that I feel when cocking the hammers? Its only a problem when re-cocking the hammers.

4. Isn't that adjuster a way to lighten that tension, but still have enough force striking the primer?

Again, I'm theorizing and learning about the inner workings of the gun at the same time.

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Browning Citori 725 Sporting
Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2021 6:19 pm 
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md2020 wrote:
Ulysses wrote:

I doubt that there is too much force on the hammer spring. You need a lot there to guarantee a hard hit on the firing pin. I wouldn't reduce the tension much if at all. I can't see that nut clearly to know exactly what it does other than hold the spring on. With the gun fully assembled but empty, try cocking the hammers. Then close the gun completely and open it a second time. Any resistance that you need to open the gun the second time has nothing to do with cocking the hammers because they are already cocked. You may need to do a little polishing on the barrel lug to reduce friction at the knuckle/forend iron juncture.



About this statemement...

1. The tension I feel is when both barrels have been fired and I attempt to open the action. I feel less tension when only one is fired, but still a lot. I feel absolutely no tension at all if neither barrel has been fired.

2. If I hold the gun straight out and release the top lever with my thumb, the barrel should fall and the action should fully open, and the ejectors should deploy, even if both barrels have been fired. It does not. I have to grab the barrel and yank it down with some force. Less force is required if only one barrel has been fired, regardless of which one. The action fully opens with the weight of the barrels if neither has been fired.

3. Doesnt the hammer spring produce the tension that I feel when cocking the hammers? Its only a problem when re-cocking the hammers.

Yes. It's the hammer springs PLUS any friction that is involved in the opening process. I'm a little concerned with what appears to be galling of the metal on the curved front edge of the receiver. Be sure to keep these curved surfaces well lubed. I would suggest using grease until the surfaces become smooth as glass, at which time oil will work fine.

4. Isn't that adjuster a way to lighten that tension, but still have enough force striking the primer?

It appears to be, but without being able to examine it in person, I can't tell for sure. You might try loosening the nuts some and see what happens. You can always retighten the nuts if it doesn't help or if misfires occur. Also, check the cocking lever for smoothness. It needs to slide smoothly in its channel so as not to require extra effort in opening the gun. Also, you might remove the hammer springs and see how much effort it takes to move the hammers. Again, they should pivot with almost no effort at all. Perhaps a little smoothing and some grease will make it easier.

Again, I'm theorizing and learning about the inner workings of the gun at the same time.


Thanks for the pics and additional info. If the gun falls open when held horizontally with the hammers cocked, then the potential problem I was concerned about is apparently not a problem.

Edit: Check again with only one hammer cocked. Try with only the top hammer cocked, and then again with only the bottom hammer cocked. See if there's any noticeable difference which hammer is cocked.

Edit: Make sure that the little slide that's in the bottom center of the rear of the barrels is well lubed and slides easily.

_________________
Please post For Sale items in the proper Classified section.

Semi-Auto Classifieds is ONLY for Complete Semi-Auto shotguns.
Over/Under Classifieds is ONLY for Complete O/U shotguns.
Items other than a complete shotgun go in OTHER Classifieds.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 2:12 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
This Tristar shoots but doesn't feel as good as my browning. The one thing that is noticeably different is the trigger pull. It takes an act of congress to get this gun to fire. According to my rough and crude fish scale measurements, the current trigger is over 7.5 lbs. That's about equal to the weight of the gun, which is too much.

The sear spring is the only thing putting pressure on the trigger. I found a similar sized spring at mcmaster-carr that is rated for 6.1 lbs. I got a dozen of them for $5

Its a $375 gun, so I got nothing to loose. So I bought and installed these new springs to replace the existing sear springs. Took me 10 minutes.

When I dry fire I can definitely tell its easier to pull. Still not the same as my browning, but much better.

Attachment:
Sear Springs 2.jpg


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Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:52 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:04 am
Posts: 45
Instead of changing the sear springs, you could consider polishing the engagement surfaces on the sear and hammer with a very fine stone. This should be done with extreme care to prevent changing the dimensions or engagement angle and depth of the sear. In particular, make sure you keep the stone square to the surface so you don't round it, and that you don't cut or round any surfaces that would reduce the depth of engagement. The goal is to remove surface roughness only.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 8:24 am 
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md2020 wrote:
This Tristar shoots but doesn't feel as good as my browning. The one thing that is noticeably different is the trigger pull. It takes an act of congress to get this gun to fire. According to my rough and crude fish scale measurements, the current trigger is over 7.5 lbs. That's about equal to the weight of the gun, which is too much.

The sear spring is the only thing putting pressure on the trigger. I found a similar sized spring at mcmaster-carr that is rated for 6.1 lbs. I got a dozen of them for $5

Its a $375 gun, so I got nothing to loose. So I bought and installed these new springs to replace the existing sear springs. Took me 10 minutes.

When I dry fire I can definitely tell its easier to pull. Still not the same as my browning, but much better.

Attachment:
Sear Springs 2.jpg


Good job. And, as I mention (and Disphenoidal mentioned in greater detail) some polishing work would pay some dividends, but it sounds like you got the major chunk of improvement by simply changing the sear springs. Any additional improvement would be minor as far as weight of pull is concerned, but it would make it smoother and more consistent.

In my opinion, if you got the weight of the pull somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 1/2 pounds, that's plenty good enough. After all, this isn't a benchrest rifle. It's a shotgun. Good job, and thanks for the great photos and the followup information. {hs#

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Please post For Sale items in the proper Classified section.

Semi-Auto Classifieds is ONLY for Complete Semi-Auto shotguns.
Over/Under Classifieds is ONLY for Complete O/U shotguns.
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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:02 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
disphenoidal wrote:
Instead of changing the sear springs, you could consider polishing the engagement surfaces on the sear and hammer with a very fine stone. This should be done with extreme care to prevent changing the dimensions or engagement angle and depth of the sear. In particular, make sure you keep the stone square to the surface so you don't round it, and that you don't cut or round any surfaces that would reduce the depth of engagement. The goal is to remove surface roughness only.



Ulysses wrote:

Good job. And, as I mention (and Disphenoidal mentioned in greater detail) some polishing work would pay some dividends, but it sounds like you got the major chunk of improvement by simply changing the sear springs. Any additional improvement would be minor as far as weight of pull is concerned, but it would make it smoother and more consistent.

In my opinion, if you got the weight of the pull somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 1/2 pounds, that's plenty good enough. After all, this isn't a benchrest rifle. It's a shotgun. Good job, and thanks for the great photos and the followup information. {hs#



That point where the sear interfaces with the hammer is very small. I wonder how much of that is really binding up. Messing with that is currently beyond what I'm comfortable trying today. Now... if I had an extra sear and an extra hammer, I'd have some insurance against screwing it up. Maybe I'll see if I can order some parts to play with. Why not...

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Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 4:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Ulysses wrote:

Thanks for the pics and additional info. If the gun falls open when held horizontally with the hammers cocked, then the potential problem I was concerned about is apparently not a problem.

Edit: Check again with only one hammer cocked. Try with only the top hammer cocked, and then again with only the bottom hammer cocked. See if there's any noticeable difference which hammer is cocked.

Edit: Make sure that the little slide that's in the bottom center of the rear of the barrels is well lubed and slides easily.


I am now of the opinion that the gun, which was sold to as being barely used with only a few rounds down the pipe, is just that. It was hard to believe because its over 6 years old. But the firing pins do look brand new and I see no other wear marks.

The stiffness in cocking the hammers may be because its not broken in yet. My browning loosened up after a few times shooting. I opened and closed it a couple hundered times and it seems to be getting looser. Maybe it will be ok after it gets shot more. Its actually not a bad gun... Just needs a few hundred more rounds run through it.

At least now I know how to replace parts in the receiver. Using this as a project gun was all I really intended.

Next I need to get rid of those annoying ejectors and convert them to extractors.

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Browning Citori 725 Sporting
Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:54 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:04 am
Posts: 45
md2020 wrote:
That point where the sear interfaces with the hammer is very small. I wonder how much of that is really binding up. Messing with that is currently beyond what I'm comfortable trying today. Now... if I had an extra sear and an extra hammer, I'd have some insurance against screwing it up. Maybe I'll see if I can order some parts to play with. Why not...


Polishing the sear and hammer won't help with the cocking effort, that is true. When trying to cock it, the hammer is rotating back under the sear but there's no engagement between the sear and hammer until the cocking is completed.

Polishing can make a measurable difference in both the trigger pull weight and how smooth and crisp the trigger break is. Although the contact patch is very small, consider that the sear and hammer are being pushed together forcefully by the mainsprings. The high pressure means even a little friction can increase the pull weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:25 pm 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Took the Tristar out to the sporting clays range with the plan to use it for the entire session. I brought the browning as a backup, but didn't need it since the Tristar ran flawlessly for 135 shots. I even hit a few clays

Trigger pull was definitely lighter. Still not quite a smooth as the browning, but it no longer hurt my finger to fire the gun. I'm going to leave it alone.

The hammer springs still feel a little stiff while re-cocking the gun. But it will loosen up.

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Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2021 9:43 pm 
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Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:13 pm
Posts: 31
md2020 wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
...
Next I need to get rid of those annoying ejectors and convert them to extractors.


I'd be glad to hear how that comes out. From your photo, the monoblock and ejectors looks like my CZ Redhead Premier Target. Would love to disable the ejectors. What a pointless feature for a target gun.


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 Post subject: Re: Question about my turkish over under action (pic includ
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2021 10:59 am 
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Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2020 11:44 am
Posts: 173
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Triggw wrote:
md2020 wrote:
Ulysses wrote:
...
Next I need to get rid of those annoying ejectors and convert them to extractors.


I'd be glad to hear how that comes out. From your photo, the monoblock and ejectors looks like my CZ Redhead Premier Target. Would love to disable the ejectors. What a pointless feature for a target gun.



That's next. I will definitely post up how that goes. I'm certainly learning about how to maintain my own gun.

But for now... I'm having too much fun shooting it. It actually swings easier for me than my Browning does. Recoil is less too, but that may be a fit issue.

Its a toss up which gun I grab when I go shooting.



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Browning Citori 725 Sporting
Tristar Viper G2 Sporting
Tristar Sporting O/U (aka Turkish Junk)
MEC 9000 to reload


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