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 Post subject: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:30 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:48 pm
Posts: 5
I was wonder if there is any problem cutting forcing cones in the AYA4 double barrel? Is there enough meat there to cut into?

How about 2 3/4" barrel into a 3"? TIA




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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:36 am 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5604
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
There is generally a minimum amount of steel required (barrel thickness) which is published in reference books. The tool makers are the best source of where to find this information. Brownells would even tell you how to do the work. They did in the past, I think they still do. I have lengthened chamber forcing cones which is usually not a problem. Lengthening the chamber is a bit more involved & you have to be careful to assure you have enough steel. Just because you have enough steel doesn't guarantee a particular gun is suitable for heavier loads. Pressure limits are usually not increased but heavier loads increase the destructive forces of recoil so the gun has to be up to the increase.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 12:55 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Sat May 13, 2006 9:19 am
Posts: 1983
Location: Columbia, SC
I don't see any reason to lengthen forcing cones and I sure would not cut 3" chambers in a light game gun like an AyA No 4.

My AyA No 2's both have fairly long forcing cones and your No 4 may also.

My Joseph Lang built in 1866 has Damascus barrels with short forcing cones and it shoots good, even patterns that I don't believe lengthening the forcing cones would improve.

It's your money and you can spend it as you wish. Lengthening the forcing cones will not add to or detract from the value of the gun; lengthening the chambers will, most likely, significantly reduce the value or make the gun difficult to sell. Some doublegun nuts like my wife and me will either not buy a gun with a lengthened chamber or will pay a reduced price for it.

I do have one gun with a 2 5/8" chamber lengthened to 3" and I paid about $1,500 less for the gun than it would have been with the original 2 5/8" chamber. I only shoot RST 2 1/2" cartridges in the gun because it was originally designed for similar loads.

If I need to shoot heavier loads than my SxS's were designed for I pull out one of my O/U's which were factory chambered for 3" cartridges.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 4:40 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5604
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
The theory behind long forcing cones, if that is what you are looking for, is that they will reduce pellet deformation & improve patterns. According to early tests with guns built for short length forcing cones, pattern percentages increased 10 or 15%. I have to agree with FlyChamps. Guns built today usually have long enough forcing cones already. Also, the opinion that patterns will be improved is not guaranteed or unanimous. Not all gunsmiths recommend it. I have done it myself & had it done by gunsmiths. It helped some & never hurt with any but these were heavy magnum waterfowl 10 & 12 ga. guns before the steel shot cluster [email protected]#& using buffered loads. It has a similar affect with bismuth & the soft nontoxic pellets as it does with lead in my pattern tests. I would think twice before doing it to a upland game gun. Is there something wrong with the patterns it is currently producing? I would never mess with the chokes or barrels of a gun that is already producing good patterns. The change you get might not be the change you want. Have you pattern tested different loads? A lot of problems can often be corrected simply by changing the shells you are shooting!


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:53 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 1056
What is the problem you are trying to solve?
I would not be taking metal out of a light game gun barrel at the point of high pressure.
I think that the value of a light game gun is reduced by barrel alterations, even choke alterations that make the gun more versatile.
The buying public, other than myself, thinks so too, in my gun show experience.
Why anyone would want a 3 inch chamber in a light upland gun mystifies me.
Your gun, your choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:02 am 
Tournament Grade

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2018 3:03 pm
Posts: 139
I am less bothered by choke alterations that open older tighter chokes for use with the more efficient modern shotgun ammunition, provided the barrels are sound to begin with. Pattern the gun first with the type of ammo you intend to use at the range you expect to use it. Try a few different brands of ammo.

Chamber alterations are another story entirely. In England the gun is now "out of proof" and is illegal to be sold if not "re-proved." No such limitation here in the States but you probably have hurt the market value significantly. I'd second the good advice you have been given above. (Or am I "third"!).


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 4:53 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:48 pm
Posts: 5
Thanks for the answers guys! The gun is choked XF / F and it kicks like a horse. I am going to open the chokes to Imp Cly/Mod. I thought opening the forcing cone would help with recoil.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:40 pm 
Diamond Grade

Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2015 9:11 am
Posts: 1056
Lighter loads, lower velocity will help with recoil, forcing cones not so much.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 6:42 pm 
Crown Grade
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Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:59 am
Posts: 6516
Location: Neosho, MO
Ranger9999 wrote:
Thanks for the answers guys! The gun is choked XF / F and it kicks like a horse. I am going to open the chokes to Imp Cly/Mod. I thought opening the forcing cone would help with recoil.


What ammo are you shooting that kicks so much? I like to upland hunt with hand loaded ammo of 1 oz shot at 1200 fps and hardly notice the recoil. Most 12 ga loads you find can be pretty intense, especially pheasant and waterfowl loads. If I'm getting abused by a gun it usually is a poor gun fit rather than the forcing cones.

_________________
An elderly gentleman, his faithful dogs, and a 16 ga SXS. All is right with the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:29 pm 
Crown Grade

Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:55 am
Posts: 5604
Location: Hemingway, S.C. 29554
"If I am getting abused by a gun, it is usually a poor gun fit rather than the forcing cones."
Bingo! A properly stocked gun of adequate weight for the load and shot with a proper mount is rarely a problem in the recoil department. My pheasant & waterfowl 1 1/4 oz. loads run about 1200 fps. with lead & less with tungsten iron. I have hunted with 10 ga. handloads of up to 2.5 oz. of lead in the old days. My 10 ga. loads with tungsten iron are 1.5 & 1 5/8 oz. at the lowest velocity in the data (1200 fps or so) & they will cleanly kill big geese further than anything else I have ever shot! The only exception I recall was when a guy gave me some hyper velocity, factory Remington 12 ga. loads. There seems to always be an exception. I can't recall the specs. but I believe they were 3/4 or maybe 7/8 oz. lead loads near 1500 fps.. I think I know why he gave them away. I decided to shoot them in my Beretta model 410, 10 ga. mag. using 12 ga. chamber inserts for informal "Cow Pasture" clays. Even in a 10 pound +/- 10 ga., they were uncomfortable to shoot! With small birds the size of doves and pigeons & even large ducks at moderate range (pre steel mandate) the 7/8 oz. 20 ga. load at 1150 +/- fps has served me very well. When the gun is a light 12 ga., I bump the shot up to an even 1 ounce. I no longer shoot those loads that kill at both ends as I find lighter loads are more efficient. That is a help with the price of tungsten iron & bismuth. Not to mention that I am much older now!


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 Post subject: Re: Spanish Shotgun foecing cones
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2021 11:33 pm 
Utility Grade

Joined: Tue Feb 16, 2021 4:48 pm
Posts: 5
Thank you for all the impute. I did go ahead anyway and cut a forcing cones in the two barrels after getting a thumbs up for my gunsmith in regards to thickness of the bore. I also opened the original chokes of Full/XFull to Mod/Full. Recoil is now manageable and better.




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