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 Post subject: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 2:35 pm 
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The 871 thread got me thinking about what do you lose by having a 5 pin lock vs. a 7 pin lock gun. OR even less pins? Or what is to be gained? Plus does having or not having a 3th locking point add to quality? Is this quality or is this features? Quality is fit and finish, isn't it? A fully loaded, but poorly executed gun surely has less "quality" than a masterfully made fewer featured gun? I sure do love the looks of these guns, but other than more "stuff" are you gaining any real benefits? I'd love to hear your view points?



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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:09 pm 
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“Quality” means different things to different people. For some folks a double barreled shotgun cannot be a quality gun if it isn’t a sidelock. For others, a quality gun has to have an intercepting sear. For still others, a gun isn’t a quality gun if it doesn’t have bushed firing pins, gas relief valves, and an articulated front trigger. Some folks will insist a gun made by an unknown maker cannot be a quality gun.

All of these viewpoints are equally valid views of what is, and is not quality, because there is no universally accepted definition of Quality. “Quality”, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.

Ultimately, asking which gun is higher quality makes about as much sense as asking which gun would fit me better. Personal differences make both questions meaningless.

That’s my $0.02 worth, offered entirely FWIW {hs#

Warmly,

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:38 pm 
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Aren't ya glad ya asked?

Unfortunatley, if you were looking for a better answer there really isn't one.

He pretty much nailed it.

Rick


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2010 9:48 pm 
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More stuff doesn't necessarily make the gun better. Ejectors are "stuff" and I don't like ejectors.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 6:16 am 
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I've had 7 pin & 5 pins. I've been asking that question for years.

A 7 pin is does not make for a "better" gun. It's just a slightly different design of sidelock.

It's ok to stone me now.

Roger.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:28 am 
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I was going to wade into this based on long experience as a consultant in quality management and quality control but decided the best way is to let you guys sort it out. Here is a place with the "definition" of quality : http://www.praxiom.com/iso-definition.htm#Requirement

You can spend several hours there completely dissecting the term.

Most often we get confused with such subjective issues as appearance, beauty, glitz, glamour, whatever.

Short definition: Any tool that meets the customer's expectations; reliably, with longevity and at reasonable cost.

From this point of view a well-fitting Model 311 Stevens 12 bore that shoots where you look and never misfires will kill all the gamebirds you can find and is a "quality" tool. Is it better or worse than a Purdey for the same job? No, but it sure costs less, will probably last a lifetime and gets the job done. Pride of ownership? Depends upon the individual and personal tastes, and your budget!

Having said this, I refer you back to the link above. With the multiple aspects of quality defined there you can build your own personal requirements. However, you will not find fine engraving anywhere in the list. Or great turkish walnut :!: :lol: I defer to the crowd now.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:31 am 
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ROGER OVER UNDER wrote:
A 7 pin is does not make for a "better" gun. It's just a slightly different design of sidelock.

Roger.



Ding, ding, ding. A winner!


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:54 am 
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One of the hallmarks of quality design is a minimum number of parts to get the object to work to customer expectations. Reliability is a function of complexity. Simpler the better. By that measure, five pin wins. However, if you want seven pins, by all means grab one!(Probably the simplest "machine" ever devised to kill a bird is a rock. Not the most effective though. :lol: )

We begin to get into personal preference and then the argument mushrooms, grows tentacles and whiskers. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 th
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:20 pm 
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Sometimes a picture really is worth a thousand words – let’s do pictures.

The following five locks are all side locks with intercepting sears. They differ in the number of pins each needs, and shows, but they are functionally equivalent locks.

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Last edited by Kyrie on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:36 pm 
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Applause! :B3

I'll save this one. Very well done Kyrie.
Beautiful.

Roger.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 th
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:41 pm 
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Here are some locks that don’t have an intercepting sear:

AyA 5 pin lock from a Trust Eibarres pigeon gun

The number of pins, and how the pins are arranged, gives us some hints at how the underlying lock work has been put together. But sometimes the number of pins visible can be very misleading. I recall one Italian gun I handled that looked like a traditional seven pin side lock – but in reality was a side plated box lock!

Life is inconsistent :?

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Last edited by Kyrie on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 th
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:57 pm 
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benedict1 wrote:
One of the hallmarks of quality design is a minimum number of parts to get the object to work to customer expectations. Reliability is a function of complexity. Simpler the better.

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Last edited by Kyrie on Fri Sep 04, 2015 6:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:10 pm 
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Remarkably well-done! This ought to be in a Stickie! Great pictures.

BTW, note the coil spring in one of the locks in the first post in the series. In Wieland's book there is an illustration of a Ugartechea 1030 lock with a coil spring. The 1030 is their premier offering. They offer this as an option. He notes that Boss had coil springs in sidelocks in the 1880s so don't think this is another Basque quirk! See page 271, 2nd ed. From the operating side it looks like a five pin lock while the Zabala shown in the post here is six pin. Viva la Difference!

I read somewhere that Ignacio Ugartechea commented when asked about coil springs, "They are better because the lock will still work if they break. They don't catch on because they are not traditional." Or words to this effect. Apologies to anyone who can find the exact quote!

So long as they always make the gun go "bang" when activated and they are reliably built to last, they are quality. Then it's all in the eye of the beholder who forks over the cash for whichever.

Again, great pictures! {hs#

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:12 pm 
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Kyrie wrote:
benedict1 wrote:
One of the hallmarks of quality design is a minimum number of parts to get the object to work to customer expectations. Reliability is a function of complexity. Simpler the better.


Quote:
Bear with me, I'm on a roll :lol:



Where in the world did you get all these guns? Yikes. You are the champion collector here. Even Mitch pales alongside this. :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:33 pm 
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benedict1 wrote:

Where in the world did you get all these guns? Yikes. You are the champion collector here. Even Mitch pales alongside this. :shock:


This is what end stage SSD looks like. View it as a recon report :lol:

Warmly,

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:02 pm 
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benedict1 wrote:
This ought to be in a Stickie!


+1 on the stickie

Kyrie - very cool! Thanks for taking the time to post all this pictures.


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:05 pm 
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I've been rereading "Spanish Best" and thinking about all of the makers, the various models, lock designs (by pins etc.) and trying to figure out if any of it makes any sense. (Thick headed!) However, my budget for SG's has been reduced (should be zero) due to a pending move. My wife and I are moving to New York sometime between now and June. She's been RIF'ed, offered a transfer and we've decided to move. I hope to purchase a 28 gauge sidelock if I can sneak it in without causing WWIII, but just couldn't understand what a 5 pin lock lacked vs. any other design. Thanks to all that have posted. Kyrie, all I can say is wow! Thanks for taking the time to post all the pic's. An adult beverage is on me if we ever meet eye-to-eye.

OBTW, I fugured out why my A. Gil doesn't have all the watertable stampings. Took the rereading of S.B. to see that the newer SG's are all in number codes.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:05 pm 
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Concur. Please sticky this Admin


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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 3:14 am 
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While on the subject of locks and pins it is worth remembering that the most expensive sidelocks are pinless, that is the pins on which parts rotate are machined from the solid material of the sidelock plate. The outer surface is thus free of pins and a better "canvas" for engravers.

And to continue the thought expressed by Kyrie about simplicity, inevitably we must go against the sidelock with its multitude of parts. Additionally, it is a system where vital mechanical bits span the receiver and the stock, thus limiting each system's independence. The opposite would be the Perazzi (and Kemen) approach. It should be easier to achieve higher quality in a simple mechanism, assuming you are willing to make a simple mechanism.

Gough Thomas had talked about "mental ilnertia" in relation to gunmakers. The above photos illustrate what he meant. The Spanish makers tried their hardest to do things with the sidelock, but they never got out of the sidelock/boxlock paradigm. It is amazing that none of them thought about developing, or even copying, another action type which might have been simpler and therefore easier to produce at higher quality. Thoughts of the coil spring powered Lancaster come to mind not as a copycat project but as a starting point.

It is fascinating to watch new makers in developing countries repeating the Spanish experience all over again.

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 Post subject: Re: Sidelock Pins etc brought about from the Arrietta 871 thread
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 8:55 pm 
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Let me see if I can bring us full circle, and back to the meaning of "quality" :)

When I take the lock from a side lock gun and hold it in the palm of my hand, I'm happiest if I'm looking at a seven pin side lock. Because I'm a traditionalist at heart, and that's the kind of lock that my heart tells me is the highest quality.

But if i pull the trigger, nothing happens, and I know when I pull the lock and hold it in the palm of my hand I'll see a broken main spring - then I want to see a coil main spring in the lock I hold. Because I'm a cheap SOB at heart , and my wallet tells me a simple coil spring is one whale of lot easier to find, and cheaper to replace, than is a beautiful V main spring!

There are many different kinds of "quality", each of which has its own attractions. :wink:

Warmly,



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