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 Post subject: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:02 am 
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hi, i have an 2004 english stock grulla 216rl 20 ga. the gun is aprox. 6 lbs 3 oz. the water table is stamped 20-78. does this mean that the gun can take 3" shells? if so, is the action/stock built sturdy enough to occassionaly handle them ? thanks in advance for your replies.




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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:25 am 
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Yes and maybe (falls in the just because you can, why would you want to?).

20-76 designates a 20 ga and 3" chambers so you can shoot 3" shells.

As for shooting heavy loads in a light game gun, read this thread and make your own decision:

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=205711


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:36 am 
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:D Hi, the markings are for 20ga, 3". But, the proper marking is 76mm for 3" not 78". Maybe a typo.

As to using 3", you can, but why? The 3" 20ga has terrible efficiency. Yes some folks swear by them, but your patterns will be spotty as the shot string will be long with the amount of shot (1 1/4oz) being pushed thru the smaller bore of the 20. This will result with a lot of deformed shot that will either be flyers or won't even reach the target.

The "Square load" for a 20 is 7/8oz. We Americans like big and powerful and we have beefed up the 20 to act like a 12 (shot weight only). Over the years the ammo makers have convinced us that big is better, when in fact it's not. IMO you would be much better served by shooting 1 oz loads on game birds.

I use 1 oz loads all the time, even on wild pheasants, they drop dead with no problem.

Can you gun handle these loads, yes, but be warned in a light gun you can cause undo stress on the stock, especially the head. The recoil will also be enough jar your teeth. here is an interesting thread that deals with this subject:

viewtopic.php?f=126&t=205711

I'd stick to 2 3/4" loads or handload some light 3" if you have to.

Good Luck!!!

All the best!

Greg

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:37 am 
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:D Mitch you rat!!! :wink:

You beat me to it!!

Stay well my friend!

Greg

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 3:04 pm 
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hi, thank you both for your comments. i have a couple more questions that perhaps you can help me with.

first is regarding using steel shot through this gun. i hunt doves on public land that just went to non tox ammunition. this gun is choked i.c./mod. can i shoot 3/4 oz of steel #7 shot through the barrels without doing damage?

also, the left barrel does not eject the shell when only the second tripper is pulled. it will eject shells if both barrels have been fired. the right barrel will eject the shell when the first trigger only is pulled. what causes this and is it an easy fix. thanks, in advance for your suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:16 am 
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You can only shoot steel if it's proofed for it. Barrels will have a fleur de lis marking. See here for example: http://tinyurl.com/yadcdef

I would not shoot steel shot in any double gun not proofed for it regardless of choke. Some do. I won't.

As to trigger/ejector problem someone else will have to help there.

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:24 am 
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benedict1,

how does a barrel(s) (on higher end spanish doubles) proofed for steel shot differ from one that is not proofed?


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 11:45 am 
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Different steel is used--harder stuff. Also some guns have chrome-lined bores. Depends upon the manufacturer. Others here, especially David Dabaco, know more about this than I. Search David's name and send him a PM.

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 4:51 pm 
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I think the solder used to joint the barrels is different - apparently one of the problems encountered in shooting steel is that the shot resonates differently and the barrels can separate.

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 4:47 pm 
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I have been hesitating on answering the question of steel on this thread because the more I understand and think about all the aspects of steel shot, SAAMI, and Spanish guns the more convoluted the answers become and the more confused I get. But, let's try and think of your Grulla 216 this way:

You just paid a ton of money for a handmade lightweight game gun from Europe. Europeans hunt differently than we do and have different ammunition requirements and regulations. Buying a Grulla is similar to buying a Ferrari --you end up with a very specialized car, designed to run on special roads, and be driven under special conditions. By asking if you can shoot steel through your Grulla, you are basically asking if you can drive your new Ferrari in commuter traffic day in and day out, or on the flip side, if you can race your Ferrari in NASCAR. The short answer of course is "hell yeah." But, you have to ask yourself what is going to happen to your Ferrari after a full NASCAR race or a year of commuter traffic? Even worse, what might happen to you if you crash your Ferrari in a NASCAR race? I would think that the answer is pretty clear, and also should be just as clear to you when you ask "can I shoot steel through my Grulla." Thus, I suspect you already know the answer to your question, but I also understand that you want to try and make your new gun meet the hunting requirements that you have at hand. Why? Because I am in a similar situation.

This is where I feel a little more comfortable shedding some light on your situation, because I am basically doing the same thing with my Ugartechea when I shoot ducks. Under normal circumstances, your Grulla was designed (through tradition and not by any deliberate design) to shoot a "standard load" of 7/8 - 1 oz. of #9 to #6 lead shot moving at an average speed of 1250 fps. Since American ammunition manufacturers do not specify the pressures generated in their shot shells, if you stick to these "standard" or "target" loads you most likely will never have a problem with your Grulla. The reason I say "most likely" is that as Americans, we buy ammunition based on the manufacturers' voluntary compliance with a set of pressure standards. But there is no guarantee by the manufacturer that their shot shells will not exceed the pressure standards of your fine "European" gun (see, you should have bought American --lol). Having said that, buying the "standard load" should keep you away from the "hotter" loads that will damage your foreign, and therefore "inferior", made gun. On a side note, it is interesting to think that there are only really three major American ammunition manufacturers left and that they are all owned by gun powder companies.

Steel presents four specific problems however: first steel shot is approximately as hard as your barrel and over time may damage it --especially in areas of constriction such as the choke. In simple terms, steel scars your barrels and blows out your choke over time --not in all guns not designed for steel, but in most. The second is because steel SUCKS, ammunition manufacturers have had to increase the velocity of steel shot to maintain the effective lethal range of the load. As a result, we have steel loads moving anywhere from 1330 fps to 1650 fps in order to kill birds effectively at 40 yards (the required 460 fps at impact). This increase in velocity comes with an increase in barrel pressure that may exceed the recommended pressure for your Grulla. Third, because steel SUCKS, ammunition manufacturers have tried to make up for its' shortcomings by increasing the number of pellet strikes on a bird. But since steel is lighter than lead, it already takes more pellets to make up 1 oz. of steel (#7 = 422 pellets) than 1 oz. of lead (#7 = 296 pellets). What used to be a lethal lead load for ducks, say #4 shot at 1 1/4 oz. to 1 3/8 oz. of shot and 185-168 pellets, has become 1 9/16 oz. to 1 5/8 oz. of steel and 300 - 312 pellets. Hence the rather recent development 3" and 3 1/2" shells. Finally, because steel is lighter and does not transmit energy to the target effectively as lead, you need to shoot two to three pellet sizes larger to kill a bird with multiple pellet strikes at 460 fps. Where we used to shoot #5 shot moving at 1250 fps at teal and decoying ducks, we now shoot #2s moving a 1650 fps. And where we used to shoot #2s at big ducks and geese, we now shoot BBs. Worst of all, even at these velocities, steel only maintains that magic 460 fps (at impact) number out to 45-50 yards (maximum), and in doing so, destroys your pattern and increases your shot column wounding in leu of killing birds. Did I say steel SUCKS?

To sum it up, steel SUCKS because of:

1. Hardness of shot
2. Increased velocity and pressure
3. Increased payload size
4. Increased shot size

All of this is not good news for your Grulla, even if you are just shooting doves. The situation is the same, only with smaller pellets. In my case, I have decided to reload alternative kinds of non-tox shot. It's not cheap, but then again it kills birds more efficiently (I hate chasing cripples in the duck pond) and you eliminate all the problems listed above. Also, you can find 2 3/4 20 ga. Bismuth and Tungsten Matrix on special if you keep your eyes open, but even on a super-sale you are going to pay about $1.75 to $2 a shell. That is still cheaper than reloading which runs about $2 to $2.40 a round.

Hope this helps explain why you do not want to shoot steel through that Grulla. Finally, don't feel like your Grulla is somehow inferior to other guns. This battle with velocity, pressure, and payload is an old story in the history of American firearms. Just look at what happened to all those old damascus Parkers, Elsies, Lefevers, and Ithacas. Believe it or not, at one time damascus steel was considered an "upgrade."


Last edited by David Dabaco on Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:22 pm 
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I knew you would show up.

Most informative. I think when this question comes up in the future I would suggest people refer to David's post in this thread to answer the thing.

May I add a footnote? I will anyway. :lol:

The nonsensical marketeers at the ammo companies, preying on the American bigger must be better, faster must be gooder, etc. defective gene in our genetic makeup, have taken those steel velocities back to the loading room and started putting out lead loads in 1-1/8 to 1-1/2 oz for 12 ga guns. I know some of you are using these in SxS guns made for heavy loads. But some are using them in our beloved Spanish upland game guns. And the results are often immediately seen with metal or wood damage of consequence. For example, Federal to name just one source has these little goodies on the shelf:

PF154

12 gauge

2 3/4", 70mm

1500 fps

4.46 dram eq.

The marketing pizazz with this one is:

If you're serious about upland bird hunting, there's no better ammunition than our copper plated, Premium Wing-Shok. For roosters, grouse, chuker, quail and more, you've got confidence when you shoot the best. When you purchase special edition Pheasants Forever loads, you can take pride in knowing that a percentage of the price you pay goes directly to the organization that supports your bird hunting heritage.


Nothing wrong with slamming them critters with a Benelli, Beretta, Rem 870, Win M12 etc. semi-auto or a stout old 8# Win 21, or a European gun made for them, with these Bazooka Babies. But, but, but----

But fellas, our little beauties, the AyA, Grulla, Garbi, Arrieta, Ugartechea, etc don't deserve to be pounded with this stuff. They weren't built for it. Same for 20 ga. versions with 3" chambers weighing in at a little over six pounds. It's really cruel to your shoulder and that lovely creation of Basque craftsmanship to shoot this stuff.

I'm like David in this regard: I've been sitting around mulling over whether to post this and finally I said, "What the h---!" It needs to be said.

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:53 pm 
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Ok, since you took the liberty, I will too.

You own a LIGHT GAME GUN, not a goose gun. If you do shoot non-tox make sure you use loads designed for your gun, not for a Remington 870 with 3" chambers

See chapter 7 on CIP proof for STANDARD performance steel shot. CIP proofs at 20-30% over recommended maximum commercial loads. Read it all to understand that there is a difference between standard and high performance steel shot cartridges. Your gun is undoubtedly, if it is proofed for steel shot (Fleur's de Li's), is proofed for STANDARD performance cartridges.

http://www.chircuprodimpex.ro/produse/a ... nition.pdf

I don't think I would want to be shooting these in MY guns as they seem a little hot to me:

Gauge :20 GA
Type :Steel
Length :2 3/4
Ounces :3/4 oz
Shot Size :7
Muzzle Velocity :1470 fps
Drams :Max


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:40 pm 
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chorizo, thank you for the opinion based on actual data and not just conjecture. that is exactly what i was looking for.

if i read the document correctly, even 20ga guns proofed for steel should probably not be used to fire standard steel shot shells since the fps of most over the counter ammunition is faster than 1350. correct? regards, tom


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:03 pm 
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lattehead wrote:
chorizo, thank you for the opinion based on actual data and not just conjecture. that is exactly what i was looking for.

if i read the document correctly, even 20ga guns proofed for steel should probably not be used to fire standard steel shot shells since the fps of most over the counter ammunition is faster than 1350. correct? regards, tom



Not correct. Less than 1280 FPS is what is stated for a Standard shell (see chapter 4). I don't know or understand where you are getting 1350 from. OK, I see where you got it. That is for guns PROOFED for steel shot. If your gun isn't proofed for steel shot you should use only standard shells.
Quote:
4. Standard 20 bore steel shot cartridges.

In order to be fired in weapons already on the market (guns proved to 1,080 bar) these cartridges must not exceed the maximum admissible service pressure specified by the CIP of 83 MPa (830 bar) when measured by means of piezo-electric
transducers.
4.1 The steel shot pellet diameter must be ≤ 2.60 mm (English no. 6).
4.2 The mean velocity at 2.50 m from the muzzle must be ≤ 390 m/s (1,280 ft/s). This is to be measured using cylindrical barrel and is to be the mean value of a series of 10 shots.
4.3 The momentum Mo = mV ≤ 9.3 Ns (see para 2.3).

Pressure is a factor also. Just much harder to measure and get a grip on, so you kind of got to lean on the shot load weight and velocity.

As for conjecture: The guys that responded to your question are some of the most knowledgeable folks on Spanish guns on this board. I wouldn't be so quick to discount what they are recommending to you as you might just find you are YOYO real quick. (you're on you're own).

Mitch

BTW: The ejectors just might not be working because of heavy loads shot through it previously. Just a thought.


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:08 pm 
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Great posts Walter and Mitch.

Walter...to add insult to injury, loads like the one you referenced are not only totally unnecessary, they result in poor ballistic performance. Sure, the copper plated shot helps keep patterns tight and reduce flyers, but the increase in velocity usually ends up in blown patterns and longer shot columns. Some say that the length of the shot column is irrelevant because the pellets are moving so fast, but testing done by the University College London Ballistics Research Laboratory has demonstrated that trailing pellets in the shot column reach their target with 50% less energy that the leading pellets (Pg. 287 in Rinker, Understanding Firearm Ballistics, 1998). So, while shot stringing may not be a problem in the amount of time it takes the first pellet to strike the target in comparison to the last, it does make a difference in the amount of energy each pellet has and its potential to kill birds.


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:19 pm 
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David Dabaco wrote:
Great posts Walter and Mitch.

Walter...to add insult to injury, loads like the one you referenced are not only totally unnecessary, they result in poor ballistic performance. Sure, the copper plated shot helps keep patterns tight and reduce flyers, but the increase in velocity usually ends up in blown patterns and longer shot columns. Some say that the length of the shot column is irrelevant because the pellets are moving so fast, but testing done by the University College London Ballistics Research Laboratory has demonstrated that trailing pellets in the shot column reach their target with 50% less energy that the leading pellets (Pg. 287 in Rinker, Understanding Firearm Ballistics, 1998). So, while shot stringing may not be a problem in the amount of time it takes the first pellet to strike the target in comparison to the last, it does make a difference in the amount of energy each pellet has and its potential to kill birds.


Chorizo: Sounds like "conjecture" to me. :mrgreen: :lol: :shock: :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:47 pm 
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And oh.... your ejector problem...

First try taking out your ejectors and cleaning them real well. They should move out with minimum force from your finger and should move relatively freely of one another. I am thinking that they are gummed up with grease or silicon.

Best,

David


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:54 pm 
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I'm coming into the discussion late in the game and don't want to create any additional confusion as this seems to be getting out of control but...

My AOC/SG Ugartechea came with a little handbook which I assume was written by AOC and not Ugartechea but the information is valid either way to the types of Spanish guns we are discussing (shooting).

“The shotgun was designed as a ‘Light Game Gun’. The concept, design and construction result in a lightweight, fast handling and dynamic shotgun that is a joy to shoot. It is imperative that the ammunition is compatible with this gun. It is imperative that you adhere to the following loads:

20ga Guns: 3/4oz to 7/8oz of #6, 7 ½, 8 or 9 [lead] shot. No more than 2 ½ dram equivalent of powder (3/4oz =1255 fps, 7/8oz = 1210 fps).”

“Usage of Steel Shot: The choke (bore constriction) in all modern shotguns has been established based on the pattern performance of shot shells loaded with lead shot. When using steel shot, you will notice a different performance in pattern density. Never shoot steel shot loads in a barrel choked tighter than modified. To do so may cause the barrel to swell or rupture. In general, steel shot fired from a modified choke will produce the equivalent of a full choke pattern and IC choke will produce a modified choke pattern.”


I highly recommend you consider David, benedict and chorizo’s comments and insights – I couldn’t agree more with them. But, we all must decide for ourselves what are safe loads to shoot out of our guns and make sure those loads (and distances at which we shoot) are ethical in terms of a lethal, clean kill. I’m sure we all agree the guns and game birds deserve nothing less. A 3/4oz #7 steel load might meet those requirements as it's up to each individual to decide. Since I don’t shoot steel and I was curious as to the performance of #7 steel shot I researched the below information. Do with it what you like.

According to John Taylor’s “Shotshells & Ballistics” book:
A 20ga, 3/4oz #7 steel load has about 316 pellets.
With a 1200 fps load it will have 1.33 ft-lbs at 20 yards and .88 ft-lbs at 30 yards.
With a 1300 fps load it will have 1.39 ft-lbs at 20 yards and .92 ft-lbs at 30 yards.
With a 1475 fps load it will have 1.74 ft-lbs at 20 yards and 1.12 ft-lbs at 30 yards and .76 ft-lbs at 40 yards.

We could debate the pellet energy (ft-lbs) or lethal penetration required to cleanly kill a Dove but 1.25 ft-lbs is the lowest I’ve ever seen referenced – and that was with lead shot. Either way, with the results above it’s safe to assume #7 steel shot is good to about 20 yards. In case you wanted to know the above ballistics would be equivalent to a 20ga, 1220 fps, 3/4oz, #8.5 lead load. If, for your own reasons, you decide to shoot steel shot I would suggest you consider at least #6 shot in the 1220-1250 fps range. And none of this information even starts to cover pressure which is another critical factor. In general, steel loads have higher pressure than lead loads for various reasons that go beyond the scope of this discussion. What is important to this discussion is that we know and understand high pressure loads and lightweight SXS game guns are not a good combination. It might be a safe pressure load but that doesn't mean it's a good idea to shoot it in your gun. See chorizo comments about using payload and fps as a "guide" in making general assuptions about a factory loads pressure.

For me, I reload Bismuth that I purchased at a lower price point (1oz load = $1.20) and shoot light payloads at no more than 1250 fps with less than 8500 PSI (just to clarify those are 16ga not 20ga loads). I don’t hunt doves but understand in some parts of the country it can be a high volume shooting situation. If I did, I would probably shoot the lightest Bismuth payload possible with my Spanish SXS and try and forget about the cost of the shell. Easier said than done I realize but it’s the price we pay when shooting a nice, lightweight SXS.

Good luck and let us know what you decide.


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:08 am 
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Pat,

Another excellent post. I thing that I forgot to mention that you insinuated carefully is that the harder the shot, the higher the pressure according to the folks a Precision Reloading and Ballistic Products. That is why Nice Shot (Ecotungsten) uses the same reloading recipes as lead, but generates slightly higher pressures. Although very close in mass, Nice Shot is significantly harder, does not give as easily, and generates higher pressure than lead.

And your analysis of steel seems right on. How we ever ended up with steel is beyond me.


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 Post subject: Re: grulla 216 water table/chamber length?
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:20 am 
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Hardness value is also set in the CIP standards:

Quote:
having a hardness value of between 80 and 110 VH1




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