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 Post subject: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:35 pm 
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Because of the multitude of questions regarding this subject, I have found and I am including a link to a document that explains very well if you can use steel shot in guns proofed for steel and not proofed for steel.

Please read and digest it. Included in the document are chapters regarding HIGH PERFORMANCE and STANDARD PERFORMANCE loads. Shot size, shot charge weight, momentum generated and shot velocity are all factors.

In short, a high performance steel shot shell should only be used in guns with the steel shot proof mark, the Fluer de Lis.

Standard steel shot shells (meeting CIP standards, not SAAMI standards. Remember the guns were proofed to CIP standards) can be used in guns not proofed for steel shot if the following conditions are met:

Pressure as published for standard shells is not exceeded
A certain shot size is not exceeded
The choke is no greater than modified
The shot velocity is not exceeded
The Momentum generated is not exceeded

The numbers are in the attached document for 12 ga and 20 ga. You will need to do the math yourself.

So before asking the question, you should be able to do the homework and decide whether you want to take the risk or no. The decision is yours alone to make. It is your gun, fingers and face.

http://www.chircuprodimpex.ro/produse/a ... nition.pdf

ADMINS PLEASE STICKY THIS. Thank you




Last edited by chorizo on Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:26 pm 
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Good post Mitch. If I understood it correctly, one thing was, the larger the bore, the larger the shot could be used in 'non-steel proofed' barrels.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 8:33 pm 
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Patriot usa wrote:
Good post Mitch. If I understood it correctly, one thing was, the larger the bore, the larger the shot could be used in 'non-steel proofed' barrels.


Errrr..... The paper speaks only to 12 and 20 gauge guns/ammunition. To say "... the larger the bore, the larger the shot ... " would be over-generalizing. I think that's what the lawyers call "assuming facts not in evidence" :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 9:15 pm 
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I concur with Kyrie. When you are dealing with pressures, fluids (or items that act like fluids) or steel, nothing can be assumed.

I would recommend just following what is published.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 7:50 pm 
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Well, it says in standard steel barrels, in 12 ga. English #3 or smaller and 20 ga, English #6. It said English #3 for 20 ga with steel approved barrels.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Does anybody have and idea what the Vickers Hardness of other non-tox shot options are? I wonder if Hevishot could be used if the other guidelines are followed.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 11:27 pm 
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Undrcoverrednek wrote:
Does anybody have and idea what the Vickers Hardness of other non-tox shot options are? I wonder if Hevishot could be used if the other guidelines are followed.

It's my understanding the Vickers test is used on the other side of the pond as it's what England uses to measure hardness. In the USA we use either the Brinell or Rockwell Scale depending on the hardness of the metal being tested. For example, the Brinell scale measures lead (12.0), bismuth (18.0) and steel (110) shot but when we start to get to the hardness level of steel and tungsten the Rockwell Scale is more accurate for those harder metals. Are we confused yet? Good, because I'm not sure I totally understand how it all works either and I have no idea how any of this transfers to the Vickers test.

But, I think we can answer your question without getting all confused about a hardness test. If steel is a bad idea in a Spanish SXS Hevi-Shot is worse. Hevi-shot is as hard, or harder than steel and shouldn't be used in lightweight game guns. Hevi-Shot should only be used in heavy-duty guns built for shooting these types of loads - think waterfowl versus upland guns. Shooting Hevi-Shot with a Spanish SXS is a bad idea for many reasons related to hardless of the shot and the pressure associated with the loads.

If you want to shoot non-toxic out of your Spanish SXS I would recommend you consider using Bismuth, ITX, Nice Shot or Kent TM loads with light payloads and standard velocity. These shot options can be found in appropriate upland loads and there are no hardness concerns.

Just my opinion. I'm sure others will have different perspectives.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:39 pm 
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chorizo wrote:
In short, a high performance steel shot shell should only be used in guns with the steel shot proof mark, the Fluer de Lis.



I know what a Fluer de Lis looks like, but wonder if anyone has a picture of the stamp on a barrel that I could see?

Rob.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:43 pm 
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http://www.europarl.europa.eu/hearings/ ... nco_en.pdf


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:32 pm 
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btt


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:55 am 
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Morning Folks;
I was always told that the scale for measuring shot hardness is the Diamond Pyramid scale. According to the scale lead is 35 DPH, steel 90-120 , hevi-shoot 200 . Quite a difference in hardness. I am told that high performance steel shot is oxymoron, but non-tox cost prohibative. I think (Hope?) the the market will lower the price of non-tox when lead is banned. You know that volume vs demand thing. Just a thought, Keith.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:46 am 
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BTT until we can get this into a sticky


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Hevi-shot is harder than steel & larger bores do tend to handle larger shot better. I agree that one should not assume anything but the size of the shot plays a large part in the stress that is exerted by the load on a barrel & the chokes. I personally believe that small sizes of Hevi-shot are much less likely to cause barrel damage than large steel pellets. I have been told by noted & well respected gunsmiths that you don't even need to use steel approved choke tubes with Hevi-shot. I got to the duck hunting marsh not too long ago & discovered I had the wrong choke tubes in the gun. I shot Hevi-shot in lead tubes all morning & after the hunt you could still screw them out with your fingers. I buffer all my Heavi-shot loads & take extra precautions to be sure that the pellets remain in the shotcup untill it leaves the barrel. Still, I don't use it in expensive guns that would be costly to replace. I probably will not buy anymore as the slight ballistic advantage it has over other types of non-toxics is not worth the added risk of damaging a barrel. I do believe there is significantly less risk with HS #5 & 6 than with large steel pellets. You don't need the ultra high velocity associated with steel for one thing, which helps keep stress & pressure within acceptable limits.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:47 pm 
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Geo, this is not a flame or directed at you as I am getting quite a few PM's asking me if I think this or that is ok to shoot in their gun based upon the document.

Frankly, if it isn't allowed by the specifications, I don't do it and I am not an engineer, nor have I proofed guns so I cannot and will not recommend not following the specifications.

Please everyone : Read the document that is provided. A discussion of what you believe makes a difference is counter productive. Read, head and follow the information provided. Failure to do so must be an informed decision based upon what you want to do with your own fingers, face and gun.

Shot size is delineated in the document and is an important part of the determination for proof.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:28 pm 
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Chorizo, Yes I agree, following the specifications is the safe thing to do & I also believe in erring on the side of safety. I also would not tell anyone to shoot steel in a gun not rated for it. Even if the gun is rated for steel, you are still taking a calculated risk shooting hard pellets in it. However, if you are within the proof limits of the gun, I can't see where you, the shooter, are at greater risk with hard shot than with a lead load the developes the same pressure. The gun barrel(s) on the other hand are always at greater risk with steel. Most of my guns were made before steel came of age, I therefore do not shoot steel in them. I have two guns that I believe were made for steel but have no specifications on them other than the proof marks. I also have a 10 ga. sxs that has steel compatable choke tubes. I shoot Hevi-shot in these guns but no steel & I use loads that have a velocity of about 1200 fps & are well within the proof limits of these guns for a service load. I also have a sidelock Merkel that the dealer tells me is the exact same gun as the one they are currently making that is rated for steel, except that mine is choked too tight to be approved for steel. I could take some of the choke out of it or I could shoot it with buffered #6 Hevi shot & everything would probably be fine. Am I going to do that with a gun that retails for around 10 G? Hell no!! The little bit of gain is not worth the risk & the piece of mind knowing that what you are shooting is safe for you & your gun!!
I just read the CIP standards & I feel that the guns that I am using for Hevi-shot are well within the CIP guidelines for standard steel loads. Hevi shot is harder but considering that I am using buffered loads & shot sizes much smaller than the CIP maximum, I think I am well within the CIP green zone. Your position on this is well taken & I agree with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Hard shot generates more pressure. Hevi-shot is harder than steel.

For example: Precision Reloading is currently offering Ecotungsten for reloading (Nice Shot). Ecotungsten weighs very, very, close to lead. So, the manufacture says you can use standard lead reloading recipes. HOWEVER, since Ecotungsten is slightly harder than lead (but still MUCH softer than steel) there is pressure INCREASE of about 1,000 to 1,500 PSI. As a result, PR pressure tests each load customers want to use free of charge in order to prevent someone from blowing their gun up and hurting themselves.

Given the same exact load (wad, powder, primer, etc...), the load that has the harder shot will generate more pressure. Since Hevi-shot is harder than steel, it will generate more pressure than steel given all other things equal.

Be careful.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:01 pm 
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I may be wrong but I think that adding buffering materiel also will increase pressure in uncertain fashion. The buffer is compressed tightly around the shot at propellant ignition and in essence forms a cylindrical "solid". It swells to press the wad walls against the chamber, forcing cone and barrel in tighter manner than just the plain shot column. You can check this out by calling Hodgdon or Alliant Help Lines and see what they say.

David, I forgot about Precision Reloading and the service they provide. Anyone fooling around with these loads would be well advised to spend a few bucks to find out what they have created. You can get you reloads pressure tested there.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sat Jan 30, 2010 10:02 pm 
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ARRRGGGGG!!!!!!!!

Guys, read the specs on the document!

Everything is specified shot size, hardness of shot, pressure generated, veleocity, shot charge.

If you differentiate from the specs by exceeding ANYTHING, then you are out of the safe zone.

Too hard shot, too much pressure, too much velocity etc.

The last page of the document gives practical guidance on velocity and momentum limits.

But the shotshells specs are specified and are much less than the proof loads shown. Go to the document and it will give you what you can do with standard steel (guns not so proofed for high perfomance loads) and high performance loads.

A Warning from the Document:

A reminder
These regulations are intended to ensure the safety with steel shot of the most vulnerable guns, namely old, thin-walled, perhaps poor-condition guns. CIP’s remit does not extend to the performance in the field of the steel shot cartridges meeting these regulations. Manufacturers and retailers are strongly encouraged by the British proof authorities to supply steel shot cartridges in this country which conform to the regulations. Any individual who chooses to use cartridges which exceed the recommendations for a particular type of gun does so at his or her own risk. In the event of any problem arising the basis for any claim would likely be weakened if it were shown that the CIP recommendations had not been followed.


Last edited by chorizo on Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:34 am 
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chorizo wrote:
--snip--
If you differentiate from the specs by exceeding ANYTHING, then you are out of the safe zone.
--snip--


To which I'll add, "Replace 'exceeding' with 'changing'."

Internal ballistics is just bizarre. Making a change that should, intuitively, reduce peak chamber pressure may, in actual practice, cause a pressure excursion. I know of at least one instance where a change that should have resulted in a lower peak pressure actually triggered some sequence of events that led to the propellant going high order. That’s something a lot of folks will tell you is physically impossible.

By and large, our goal is to have a lot of fun without hurting ourselves or bystanders, and not destroying our treasured guns. Let’s not let our desire to save ten bucks on a box of ammunition lead us into discovering just how good our health insurance really is :(

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:42 pm 
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Yes, all the above is true, but unfortunately everything is not quite so black & white. Actually, since Hevi-Shot is not steel, there are really no CIP standards for Hevi-Shot. Steel is the closest thing we have to compare it with, however. Hevi-Shot is claimed by its maker & those that supply reloading data for it to be safe in steel approved shotguns. The loads I shoot are tested & published & the pressure, velocity, etc. are known. The shot sizes needed for an effective Hevi-shot load are much smaller than steel. I use 1 1/8 oz. #6's for ducks. I can't say for sure, but I believe that is why it normally produces less evidence of barrel stress than steel. The evidence I am speaking of is that in most cases there is no barrel expansion in the choke area & little signs of wad damage is found on recovered wads. Just as with steel, this varies with shot size. The formula for Hevi Shot may be simular to the CIP formula for steel but it will surely be different but like steel, I feel sure that shot size, velocity etc. will be major factors. Yes, buffer does increase pressure as does increasing pellet hardness. The effects of buffer are not totally agreed upon by the experts, but is is a common belief that it helps the shot flow smoothly through the choke. I don't know when Spain adopted the CIP standard or if / how many guns were made for steel before that happened. I do know that many guns were made for steel before CIP standards went into effect & not all countries use the CIP standard. I would think that High Performance steel is pretty much a CIP exclusive.




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