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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:56 pm 
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geometric wrote:
claimed ....... I can't say for sure, ........ I believe ...... normally produces ........... most cases ..........may be simular ..........surely be different ......., I feel ........effects of buffer are not totally agreed upon ........ common belief ........ I don't know ......or if / .....I would think .



The words above were taken from your previous post.

Assumption and lack of emperical data are BAD, BAD things when playing with things that go boom.




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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:51 pm 
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chorizo wrote:
geometric wrote:
claimed ....... I can't say for sure, ........ I believe ...... normally produces ........... most cases ..........may be simular ..........surely be different ......., I feel ........effects of buffer are not totally agreed upon ........ common belief ........ I don't know ......or if / .....I would think .



The words above were taken from your previous post.

Assumption and lack of emperical data are BAD, BAD things when playing with things that go boom.


I cracked up reading this becasue I was about to post exactly the same thing. FWIW, here is my list of phrases:

geometric wrote:
everything is not quite so black & white

there are really no CIP standards for Hevi-Shot.

Is claimed by its maker

I can't say for sure, but I believe

normally produces

in most cases

may be simular

I feel sure that

not totally agreed upon

a common belief

I don't know

I would think


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:17 pm 
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Give me a break!! Just because I am not sure why something happens, does not mean I don't know what happens!! The pressure & velocity of the loads I am using are known. The inerta can be calculated. Do you know of any CIP specifications for Hevi-Shot?? I do not. Hevi-Shot has been tested by the Hevi-Shot company, Hodgdons, Alliant & BPI that I know of & it's characteristics are different than steel. It requires much smaller shot sizes at much less velocity than steel to get the job done, which means less stress & wear & tear on the gun. I can tell that there is no excessive stress on the choke tubes because even ordinary lead tubes have shown no expansion & wads are recovered in good enough shape to use again. This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of expert gunsmiths, ballistic experts, & folks that make & install choke tubes. Also, I have shot a lot of Hevi-Shot & I know very well what to expect from it!! Since there are no CIP standards for Hevi-Shot, I have tried to apply the CIP standards for steel as closely as I can. Obviously, the CIP standard for hardness of steel can not be applied to HS. Based on what I have learned from the experts & my own experience, I have concluded that my loads create less barrel stress than comparable steel loads. Lastly, I am not using these loads in light game guns. The guns are designed for heavy waterfowl loads & have thick barrels of quality steel.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:23 pm 
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Quote:
This is not just my opinion, it is the opinion of expert gunsmiths, ballistic experts, & folks that make & install choke tubes.


Names, companies, telephone numbers and links would be nice.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:43 pm 
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I'm sorry geo, but what all this comes down to is you're guessing. You know what you want to do, are going to do it, and are looking for an external reassurance that what you have already chosen to do is safe. That reassurance just isn't there.

It's your life and you can do as you please without let or hindrance from me. All I'm objecting to the rationalization that there isn't danger in firing ammunition for which a firearm was not intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:49 pm 
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Folks,

I think this subject is about done to death. Mitch has posted the facts, everyone has had his say, and we're just repeating ourselves.

If folks want to stick around and do that, that's OK by me. But I'm going to find something more interesting to do - like check the on-line auctions to see what Spanish Steel has been newly offered today.

Hey - a fellow can dream :)

Warmly,

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:56 pm 
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I have names, companies & phone numbers, but no links. I am not going to take the liberty of quoting these folks without their permission. If you really want to know, you can do your own research. I don't feel that I need to prove or justify anything I have said. It doesn't seem that you want to discuss this objectively anyway, but you might want to talk to the folks at Briley or Tom Roster, Tom Armsbrust, or Kirk Merrington, the English gunsmith. I doubt that you will learn anything, however, as it is apparent that all you will hear is what you want to hear!! The underlying fact is there is no CIP standard for Hevi-Shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:50 pm 
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geometric wrote:
I have names, companies & phone numbers, but no links. I am not going to take the liberty of quoting these folks without their permission.


Ooooookay.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:41 am 
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Hey Kyrie and Chorizo,

I think perhaps you need to cut Geo some slack. While I TOTALLY AGREE with you in PRINCIPLE and PRACTICE, I would like to point out that there might be some merit to what Geo is saying. According to Reloading Specialities Inc. (RS) (reloading manuals sold through Ballistic Products), it is possible to shoot Hevi-Shot with very low pressure. For example: look at the following recipe from RS Hevi-Shot Reloader's Guide Vol. 1:

12 ga. Winchester AA 2 3/4" Hull
Win. 209 Primer
39 gr. Alliant "Steel"
SAM 1 Wad
1 - (1/8") Felt Space under shot
1 - (1/8") Felt Space over shot
1 oz. Hevi-Shot #6
8,100 PSI
1,500 FPS

(Just think what this load would might like if you toned it down to 1250 fps! And of course I would want to test it for PSI first and pattern it)

Here is my "old" load

12 ga. Winchester AA 2 3/4" Hull
Win. 209 Primer
37 gr. Alliant "Steel"
SAM 1 Wad
1 - (1/8") Felt Space under shot
1 - (1/8") Felt Space over shot
1 1/8 oz. Hevi-Shot #4
9,100 PSI
1,500 FPS

Now, I experimented with this load out of my 870 and found that the Hevi-Shot did not "drop" ducks dead like I wanted them. Rather, it hit ducks so damn hard that they didn't even know they were dead! It was like shooting big game with a bucket full of arrows --more than enough penetration and plenty of strikes, but not enough energy transmitted to the bird to knock it down out of the air. In simple terms, the stuff is just so damn hard that it passes through the bird like paper. As a result, my experience has been that the bird just keeps flying and then bleeds out 200 yards away from the blind only to collapse. 200 yard retrieves might work for private clubs, but not on the high pressure refuges I shoot. That's a lost bird. I like finding my birds dead in the water 15 yards from the blind and that's why I now shoot Ecotunsten.

From a ballistic stand point I did find scaring in my barrel. The HS was soo hard that it would wear through the heavy shot cup and score the barrel. I didn't care because all my duck guns are "knockabouts" (including my poor Ugartechea), destined to be used and abused. But, in a game gun proofed to 950 BAR, that worries me. I never shot HS through my Uggie, although in terms of PSI indicated by the recipes it should handle it in light loads (1 oz. - 1 1/8 oz.) with the right powder and primer.

I did the math today: I hunted ducks 16 days this season and killed 71 ducks (4.4 average) and a couple of geese in the Pacific Flyway (more than some, less than others). I shot all those birds with my Ugartechea M-30. Shrthrcrzy killed something like 157 ducks and 44 geese (yea Brian!), but then again he lives in God's country (near Klamath). This was on top of my normal pheasant routine. 4 days for wild pheasants with 6 birds killed, and another 20 club birds killed for training purposes --all over my pup "Reina"). We went chukar hunting too and put up 30 sage hens, but that is a story for another time.

This morning as I was standing in Pond 9 at Colusa NWR I came to a life changing realization while watching the sun rise and the birds fly over head. You see, yesterday I shot Los Banos WA and we did good. But going through the check station I saw a photo of a guy who died out on the refuge last year of natural causes while hunting pheasants over his Brittany at age 94. Then this morning, as I packed my stuff to head out to the ponds, I had a brief discussion with "Earl" as he loaded a dozen and a half decoys, his lunch, and other miscellaneous gear on his back and grabbed his walking stick and his gun and headed to the free roam area with his lab mumbling something to me about how this ain't sh*t, and that Darby's Rangers went to combat with heaver packs and only 2 weeks of training, and that's really when you learn what it means to be a "real" man. I'll have to say, Earl is one tough son-of-a-bitch at age 74!

What I realized is that I can only hope that I am as fortunate as these men when I am their age. My last bird of the season was a hen widgeon who I had to run down as she tried to cross the levee and escape into the next pond. I dropped her hard, but because of her desire to live another day she managed to swim to shore, climb the bank, and cross the levee before I caught up and grabbed her. Despite my feeble efforts to dispatch her quickly by snapping her neck and pinching her under the wings, she refused to die and watched me --eyes wide opened-- as we crossed the pond together and I put her on my stringer. That hen died refusing to not miss a thing, despite how terrible her plight must have seemed to her as lie right next to a dead drake mallard on my stringer while seeing the light of the sun rise over the Buttes and shinning upon her for the last time. When it's time, that is how I would like to die --eyes wide open and watching all that is around me in the marsh or out in the field. And if I am not fortunate enough to die like that poor hen, then I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread across one of those ponds on the refuge. With any luck, perhaps my nephews or my grandchildren will say someday: "hey, today we shot a limit of ducks out in Granpa Dave's pond!" But like always, the decision now is choosing which pond to I want to be in when the sun rises next season.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 9:02 am 
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Thanks David, Like the boys at the Ballistic Labs say, "one good test is worth a thousand expert opinions." I have been loading HS since it came on the market years ago. My loads run a little more pressure, a little over 9,000 psi but are about 300 fps less velocity & they are buffered. I have shot about 30 pounds of it & never had a pellet wear through a wad or any other problems with it. I use Hodgdon's data.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:20 am 
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David, good post. What loads have you been shooting in the Uggie 30? Is it factory choked IC/MOD?

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 11:52 am 
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Patriot,

I set up my Ugartechea just for waterfowl and had it choked M/M. I want to be clear about what I am doing, because I think my shooting practices are a bit unusual for most waterfowlers. First, I almost exclusively shoot my own reloads at waterfowl. I just do not trust SAMMI factory loaded steel shot. I never know what the pressures are or what is inside their shells and the manufacturers don't seem to want to divulge that information. As a result, I ONLY shoot Tungsten-Matrix, Ecotungsten, Bismuth, or ITX Shot that I personally have loaded. I NEVER shoot steel or Hevi-Shot. The heaviest load I shoot is 1 1/4 oz of #4s or #5s; or 1 1/8 oz. of #2s. I also have all my loads tested through Precision Reloading or Ballistic Products for pressure, follow reloading recipes to the letter, and keep all my pressure under 9,500 PSI. But I prefer to shoot loads under 9,000 PSI, and my loads are never going faster than 1265 fps. My goal is to keep my loads as close as possible to a traditional lead load that my gun was designed for by using substitute shot that is as close as possible to lead, with traditional velocities, the lightest payloads I can consistently kill ducks with, and the lowest PSI ratings I can find. My loads usually have less felt recoil than most of my friends feel shooting their automatics (read Benelli SBEs) and I shoot just as many --and sometimes more-- ducks as they do. More importantly to me, I loose very few birds. I shoot most of my ducks in the 35 yard to 55 yard range and I want them dead on the water when they fall.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 12:16 pm 
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All irrelevant.

Read the CIP specifications. If you do not follow it, you are outside of the specifications and thus fall into the warning that is posted on the document:

Quote:
Any individual who chooses to use cartridges which exceed the recommendations for a particular type of gun does so at his or her own risk.


I see that no where did you calculate momentum, one of the limits in the document.

I really do not care what you shoot in your guns. I don't stand next to you when you shoot it and it isn't my gun, fingers or face.

What I do care about is that someone may follow your lead and do the same thing because someone said it was ok.

Now, let me explain some reality to those of you that say it is OK to shoot such and such. Just imagine this conversation between a 7 fingered, one eyed fat man and a lawyer:

Well, Mr. Abogado of Crooked Liability Lawyers, APC., I just blew up my $4,500 Light Game Gun made by Vascos de Espana when I shot a heavy shot load that exceeded CIP standards (why they don't even have heavy shot standards and the load exceeds CIP standards because the shot is harder than allowed) because Mr. Fulano that goes by the name of "Me Importa Un Bledo" on SGW said I could. He even published a load that he uses and said it could be really safe if I did this and that. Because I followed what he said, I lost three fingers on my left hand, the hand I use as a professional booger picker and my right eye, as well as my special gun. I want to sue him for millions & millions of dollars because the information he published led me to believe I could do that even though CIP standards says I shouldn't.

ANYONE that advocates anything other than an official standard because "I believe, I assume, it is reasonable" or any other assumption runs the risk of having to defend their personal advice.

I can hear the questioning now: "So Mr. Fulano, please explain to this fine Jury of mouth breathers what your particular qualifications are that allowed you to recommend such shotgun loads."

For the record: I do not recommend, nor do I advocate, support, endorse any of the loads others have published in this thread. I fully recommend that everyone follow the CIP standards that were published in the original post and any other manufacturer's recommendations as well as all SAAMI standards. Any deviation from published standards are at your own risk.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 1:36 pm 
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chorizo wrote:
All irrelevant.

Read the CIP specifications. If you do not follow it, you are outside of the specifications and thus fall into the warning that is posted on the document:

Quote:
Any individual who chooses to use cartridges which exceed the recommendations for a particular type of gun does so at his or her own risk.


I see that no where did you calculate momentum, one of the limits in the document.

I really do not care what you shoot in your guns. I don't stand next to you when you shoot it and it isn't my gun, fingers or face.

What I do care about is that someone may follow your lead and do the same thing because someone said it was ok.

Now, let me explain some reality to those of you that say it is OK to shoot such and such. Just imagine this conversation between a 7 fingered, one eyed fat man and a lawyer:

Well, Mr. Abogado of Crooked Liability Lawyers, APC., I just blew up my $4,500 Light Game Gun made by Vascos de Espana when I shot a heavy shot load that exceeded CIP standards (why they don't even have heavy shot standards and the load exceeds CIP standards because the shot is harder than allowed) because Mr. Fulano that goes by the name of "Me Importa Un Bledo" on SGW said I could. He even published a load that he uses and said it could be really safe if I did this and that. Because I followed what he said, I lost three fingers on my left hand, the hand I use as a professional booger picker and my right eye, as well as my special gun. I want to sue him for millions & millions of dollars because the information he published led me to believe I could do that even though CIP standards says I shouldn't.

ANYONE that advocates anything other than an official standard because "I believe, I assume, it is reasonable" or any other assumption runs the risk of having to defend their personal advice.

I can hear the questioning now: "So Mr. Fulano, please explain to this fine Jury of mouth breathers what your particular qualifications are that allowed you to recommend such shotgun loads."

For the record: I do not recommend, nor do I advocate, support, endorse any of the loads others have published in this thread. I fully recommend that everyone follow the CIP standards that were published in the original post and any other manufacturer's recommendations as well as all SAAMI standards. Any deviation from published standards are at your own risk.


+1

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:25 pm 
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Every shotgunner knows, or should know, that it would be unsafe to shoot any load, be it lead, steel or steel substitute out of any old, thin-walled and/or poor conditioned gun.

What really needs to be shown to the numb nutz around here is the consequences of shooting steel in their not-proofed-for-steel Spanish guns that are in decent condition. Perhaps chorizo or Kyrie would be kind enough to post links and/or pics of guns or injuries sustained to individuals proving what happens to your Spanish guns, fingers and face when shooting steel shot loads, either standard or high performance that exceeds CIP recommendations regarding shot size, charge weight. momentum generated and/or shot velocity. Let's make sure that the links and/or pics referenced are real documented examples (not those that may have been caused by an obstruction) that proves once-and-for-all that you should never even consider shooting steel shot loads out of your Spanish gun. So, to not get to be too burdensome, please limit the links, pics and articles cited to guns built since the advent of steel shot---so guns built in the last quarter century or so would be enough for the idiots to get the message.

TIA,
bamboozler


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 2:34 pm 
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Mitch,

I agree with you. I never said that is o.k. to shoot steel or Hevi-Shot in a gun not proofed for that load and I specifically said that is why I do not shoot, or recommend shooting, steel or Hevi-Shot. I thought I made that clear. :?:

As far as reloading goes, I also know that every time I put my own reloaded shell into a gun I am doing so at MY OWN RISK. It does not matter if it is a light skeet load or a duck load. I dropped the powder, I loaded the primer, I dropped the shot.
I AM RESPONSIBLE FOR WHATEVER HAPPENS. That's the way it is with all reloading.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:19 pm 
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If asked for my opinion, I'll give it. If my opinion differs from what you wish to hear, please feel free to ignore it. However, if asking for my blessing, please continue to hold - it's going to be a long time in coming.

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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 3:23 pm 
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David, mi querido amigo, I understand. I want folks to understand what the published limits are and that exceeding any part of it and its advocacy is a risk to life and limb and your financial well being.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:11 pm 
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Quote:
And if I am not fortunate enough to die like that poor hen, then I want to be cremated and have my ashes spread across one of those ponds on the refuge.


The club I used to shoot has had funerals in the ponds for three former members. Ashes loaded into blank shells and fired out over the water. Relatives sometimes come out on hunt days and just sit in the blind with no gun. It's a good club with lots of history, and respect for members.


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 Post subject: Re: Shooting Steel Shot in Spanish Shotguns
PostPosted: Mon Feb 01, 2010 7:41 pm 
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I will not have to defend myself in regard to telling anybody to shoot anything & I don't expect anyone else to do so either. I don't shoot steel in anything. I shoot Heavi-shot in some guns but not in others. I make that decision based on the facts. Obviously, one should stay within the proof pressure of the service load for his gun. Hard shot places your barrel at risk. It is no more hazardous to your health than a lead load that developes the same pressure. The loads that I shoot are published. If anyone has a question about them, they can contact the publisher. No, I am not guessing. I know full well what I am doing & I know my Hevi-shot loads develope less pressure than steel. Most on here will disagree but I prefer to rely on experts & powder companies that have experience with Hevi-shot than outdated CIP specs that were written before Hevi-shot was invented & never included the testing of a single Hevi-shot load. The facts are there for anyone to find that has the foresight to see beyond an outdated document. Then they can make an informed decision to shoot or not to shoot steel or Hevi-shot in whatever gun based on the facts & the risks. That is all I have to say. I am out of here.




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