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 Post subject: Paper shells
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:28 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:45 am
Posts: 23
I have around 400 of once fired winchester ranger super trap -mark5 paper hull shell 21/4-11/8-71/2 have tried to reload with win AA wad but the hull crips. what shuold i be reloading them with or should i not reload them?




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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 7:58 am 
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Joined: Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:06 pm
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You can goof around and find the right combo & adjustments to get them reloaded,but for 400 shells I
wouldn't bother,for 4000,I would.


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:34 am 
Presentation Grade

Joined: Wed Nov 19, 2008 3:04 pm
Posts: 881
Location: Eastern Ohio
Try using the Clay Buster red wad it is the replacement for the old WW red short wad that was originally used.

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:53 pm 
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Location: The U.P.'s U.P.
braggman wrote:
I have around 400 of once fired winchester ranger super trap -mark5 paper hull shell 21/4-11/8-71/2 have tried to reload with win AA wad but the hull crips. what shuold i be reloading them with or should i not reload them?

braggman-
Let's back up a step.

For your load with the win AA wad, could you list the other components you used? That is, what primer, what powder, how much powder, what weight of shot? What was the source of your data for the amounts of powder, shot, primer type, and powder type? (Did you get it out of a book? If so, which one? I think no current manuals or on-line data sources provide loading data for paper hulls that are more than 40 years old, but if there are such sources, I'd really like to know about them.)

Thanks.
--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2012 9:45 am
Posts: 23
No book just reloading with green dot with win red wads waa12r with 31/4-11/8 also tried waa12 white wad and pacific verelite blue wads. Could not find in any of my old reloading book and i have some from the 50s. Also with Alcan #2 wads may have to try some with the old cardboard wad what do you think.


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:24 pm 
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braggman wrote:
No book just reloading with green dot with win red wads waa12r with 31/4-11/8 also tried waa12 white wad and pacific verelite blue wads. Could not find in any of my old reloading book and i have some from the 50s. Also with Alcan #2 wads may have to try some with the old cardboard wad what do you think.

braggman-
Frankly, I don't know what to think.

Let's return to my original questions:

1. What primer are you putting in your paper hulls? Winchester 209? Federal 209? Federal 209A? Remington 97? Remington 209s? Something else, like some old Alcan or Herters?

2. For your "31/4-11/8" loads, how many grains of Green Dot are you putting in the hulls. Are you weighing the powder with a balance or scale? Are you using dippers?

3. How are you measuring the 1-1/8 oz of shot? By weight on a scale/balance? Dipper? Mechanical reloader?

The forum could perhaps be more helpful if you would explain what you intend to do with the reloads. Shoot formal or informal trap or skeet or sporting clays at a club? Shoot clays in the backyard? Hunt birds or small game?

With 400 hulls, you have maybe 1200 or 1600 shots before the hulls are worn out. What are your plans for new hulls and other components when this happens.

Thanks.

--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Location: Route 66 New Mexico
I load Federal papers with the following:

Federal Paper Hull or any other 2 3/4" paper hull
18.4 gr. Hodgdon Clays
DR XL1 wad
1 oz. shot
Noble Sport 209 primer

This is not a published load so load at your own risk, it is however a middle of the chart load. You can expect three reloads with paper hulls before they burn at the brass/paper junction.

TM

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:14 am 
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I have several thosand of these old paper hulls....they have a very high cork basewad that is likely very fraiable. At best, two reloads before the basewad blows out or is in pieces. I have also seen the brass base crack. I load on a MEC Junior, bushing 36 with Green Dot Powder, Noble Sport primer, red Claybuster WW clone short wad with 1 1/8 oz of shot. Key here is to get a smooth pre crimper, don't use a 6 or 8 point pre crimper. I would not shoot in anything but a break open gun...if basewad blows out and gets stuck in barrel you won't know it if shooting an autoloader or pump. These is a nice load and has minimal recoil...I shoot practice trap with this load with good results.

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 12:53 pm 
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gunsnrods wrote:
I have several thosand of these old paper hulls....they have a very high cork basewad that is likely very fraiable. ...

gunsnrods-
Was the use of a cork basewad unique to the Winchester Ranger Trap shells? Did Western also use that hull construction?

There are very few published illustrations of sectioned paper hulls, probably because before the advent of plastic hulls hull ID was not really critical in pressure determinations. Is there any chance you could section one of these hulls with a cork basewad and post a photo of it here? It would be educational. I'm curious how they locked the basewad into the tube.

Thanks.
--Bob


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:14 pm 
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Correction to my earlier post. I performed an autopsy on one of my W/W paper empties. Basewad is a paper product and not cork. Lyman #1 has a published recipe: 23 grains of Green Dot, red W/W wad, WW 209 primer...1180 FPS...Sorry for the earlier errant information. mk

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Sun May 27, 2012 6:51 pm
Posts: 10
I just recently loaded the same Winchester paper hulls. They have a higher base wad than the Federal Paper. Used 19 grains Red Dot, W209 primer, WAA12R wad. They loaded up like a dream.


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Here are a couple of images that poster "gunsnrods" asked me to insert in this thread.

First, here's an image of a load given in Lyman's Shotshell Handbook, first edition, showing the entry for the load he quoted above.
.
Image
.
Second, here's an image clearly showing the WW paper hulls that he and the original poster are reloading. I'd guess the shells are from the mid-1960s when WW was still marketing the Mark 5 shells. As he points out above, the basewad is fiber/paper and has some potential for coming apart. It may shed a donut of paper into the barrel, which might have some unfavorable consequences when the next shot is fired.
.
Image
.
--Bob
edited to change image URLs


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:32 pm
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pitted bore wrote:
Here are a couple of images that poster "gunsnrods" asked me to insert in this thread.

First, here's an image of a load given in Lyman's Shotshell Handbook, first edition, showing the entry for the load he quoted above.
.
Image
.
Second, here's an image clearly showing the WW paper hulls that he and the original poster are reloading. I'd guess the shells are from the mid-1960s when WW was still marketing the Mark 5 shells. As he points out above, the basewad is fiber/paper and has some potential for coming apart. It may shed a donut of paper into the barrel, which might have some unfavorable consequences when the next shot is fired.
.
Image
.
--Bob
edited to change image URLs


Braggman donated Winchester Papers with tall basewad.
WIN209
22.5 gr Green Dot
WAA12R
1-1/8 oz #7 lead

Crimp looks slightly tented but still tight. I used the 6 pt crimp starter.
Loaded a few more and some of the crimps were a little taller than others. Pulled the crimp and dropped to 450 gr of shot and they're still a little proud. Will run over the chrono later.


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 Post subject: Paper shells
PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2021 6:55 pm 
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The so called “donut” is the gas seal and yes it deteriorates quickly, but I have never had one migrate out of the hull. Also I’ve never had a base wad come apart either. It must be kept in mind that these hulls are good for reloading once or twice but that’s it. They do not have the durability of plastic hulls. I also get only two reloads from Federal papers before pinholes appear. The Winchesters do not develop pinholes that quickly. It should also be noted that there were two types of Winchester papers: low base/high base wad and high base/low basewad. They do not load the same. I have the high basewad type and I load them with 20 grains of Win 452 or 17.5 grains of Red Dot and a WAA12R wad and Win primers. Both produce beautiful loads with either 1 1/8 or 1 oz of shot

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 1:10 am 
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I fired a dozen of them over the chronograph today. One "donut" popped loose and ended up about eight inches down the barrel. I don't believe it was blocking enough to be a bore obstruction but I wouldn't push that. Half of the brass split. Look like a one and done out of the SxS.

A lot more smoke rolls out when the action breaks open than you get with Federal Papers in a similar loading. It's odd because the paper seems drier (less wax) than Federals.


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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:32 pm 
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Just loaded up 25 using my recipe. They all looked like factory ammunition. There is nothing prettier than a proper crimp with paper. These will be shot then discarded.

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 Post subject: Re: Paper shells
PostPosted: Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:56 am 
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Thank you Braggman for sending these my way! These produce a lot more rolling smoke than Federals regardless of powder used.

https://vimeo.com/534573210

I ended up using bushing 35. Dropping 19.2 gr of Red Dot under a WAA12R and an ounce of eights. No more tented crimps. They're consistent and going a little over 1,100 fps. Going to use them on starlings this weekend if the weather is reasonable.




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