I've got a neighbor who is getting out of the reloading business for some reason. He is giving me over 10000 primers for free. He has winchester, federal and cci. Are there any major differences between the primers or are they all pretty much the same with a different package?
blue tick
Primer Question
Unlike primers for metallic cartridge reloading, yes there are major differences between shotshell primers and that includes dimensional differences as well so any substitution of primers from a recipe means clearing it first with the powder manufacturer to be safe.
Being given over 10K primers is quite a gift! You should take your neighbor and his wife out to dinner. IMO, you'll still be coming out ahead! :mrgreen:
Being given over 10K primers is quite a gift! You should take your neighbor and his wife out to dinner. IMO, you'll still be coming out ahead! :mrgreen:
I'm not sure what all they are as of yet. It's an older neighbor who is giving them to me. We are supposed to go through them this afternoon and determine what all is there.
The real question is how much difference is there between the hottest and the coldest one. If they are within a small decimal of each other than subbing one for the other shouldn't make much if any difference. If there is a large difference between them, then there could a significant change in pressure by subbing one for the other. I have been told that the rem209 and the cheddite209 are so close that subbing them out for each other is ok.Vie said:
The only way this question is ever going to get answered right is to have a few different loads, using the same components in the same type of hull, except the primer and have them sent to Tom Armbrust.
Most depends on what the load is, and as stated before, any loads under 10,000 psi, interchanging just the mild primers, not the hotter Federals or CCI's, will not bring the psi up to SAAMI
An example that does not change at all.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Ched. 209 Win WAA12L 12.5 grs. 5,500 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Fed. 209 Win WAA12L 12.6 grs. 5,400 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Rem. 209P Win WAA12L 12.6 grs. 5,400 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Win. 209 Win WAA12L 12.8 grs. 5,500 psi. 1050 fps.
This is right from the Hodgdon site.
I am willing to chip in for the cost to do this and then it can become a sticky.
Most depends on what the load is, and as stated before, any loads under 10,000 psi, interchanging just the mild primers, not the hotter Federals or CCI's, will not bring the psi up to SAAMI
An example that does not change at all.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Ched. 209 Win WAA12L 12.5 grs. 5,500 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Fed. 209 Win WAA12L 12.6 grs. 5,400 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Rem. 209P Win WAA12L 12.6 grs. 5,400 psi. 1050 fps.
Lead shot 12 ga. 7/8 oz. Win WAAlite Win. 209 Win WAA12L 12.8 grs. 5,500 psi. 1050 fps.
This is right from the Hodgdon site.
I am willing to chip in for the cost to do this and then it can become a sticky.
I have had had the same correspondence with Alliant as others concerning the Win primer, in that they can be subbed for the Rem primers. Ceddite as well. I also discussed Wolf primers with them and they said they could be considered a substitute for Win primers.
I load a lot of steel and every you get data tends to be a bit different for the same set of components, so you be the judge. I pesonally will not take a judgemental statement to never substitue a component without doing some digging,for that very reason. Everyone has to do their own thing.
I load a lot of steel and every you get data tends to be a bit different for the same set of components, so you be the judge. I pesonally will not take a judgemental statement to never substitue a component without doing some digging,for that very reason. Everyone has to do their own thing.
By whom ??Major146 said:
While doing that substitution may still keep you under the SAAMI max in some loads, it's fundamentally incorrect (in my opinion) to say that because they may be "so close" in some loads, that it's somehow Ok to deem the Ched 209 as a viable substitution for the Remington 209P in all loads, with all component combinations.Major146 said:
Here are just a couple of loads where a 1-for-1 substitution results in a +1,000 PSI increase (first load circled in blue). And in the case of the second load (circled in orange), a .2 reduction in powder with the Ched 209 still results in a +1,400 PSI increase in pressure :
While not bad advice, it's not the "only" way. Just looking at the existing manufacturer load data for various loads tells you that the two aren't "so close" ....David W said:
To do "what" exactly, - test the difference between two particular primers in all possible loads, or to test two primers in a specific load ?David W said:
Ah, Ok ....David W said:
Agree 100%, - that's the salient point here, yes ...David W said:
I would go on to say that the "so long as you are under 10,000 PSI" cliché doesn't always give you the security blanket protection that some think it does, but that's a topic for a different day ...
DavidW,
You will run out of disposable income, trying to prove that Cheddite and Remington 209STS primers are equals.
They are NOT equals they never were and they never will be.
When folks realize or start to realize that there are differences between Lot Numbers of primers of by the same manufacturer, let alone differences between manufacturers, then we will START to get somewhere.
There is NO exact replacement for any primer. Only OK substitutions, sometimes in some situations, but NEVER an exact replacement.
Stop being so effing blinded by the all mighty dollar and just use proper loading data. We are only talking about pennies per box of shells, it ain't like if you buy the correct primer you won't be able to afford food. At least it better not.
Penny wise and primer stupid....should be the Subject line of all these primer threads.
You will run out of disposable income, trying to prove that Cheddite and Remington 209STS primers are equals.
They are NOT equals they never were and they never will be.
When folks realize or start to realize that there are differences between Lot Numbers of primers of by the same manufacturer, let alone differences between manufacturers, then we will START to get somewhere.
There is NO exact replacement for any primer. Only OK substitutions, sometimes in some situations, but NEVER an exact replacement.
Stop being so effing blinded by the all mighty dollar and just use proper loading data. We are only talking about pennies per box of shells, it ain't like if you buy the correct primer you won't be able to afford food. At least it better not.
Penny wise and primer stupid....should be the Subject line of all these primer threads.
Yeah,
Tell you what, first get a valid load. 5,400 PSI with Winlite isn't going to tell you dick squat.
When you figure out how and when true differences in primers are going to show up you let me know.
Tell you what, first get a valid load. 5,400 PSI with Winlite isn't going to tell you dick squat.
When you figure out how and when true differences in primers are going to show up you let me know.
Well Mark, if you had followed some of my other posts, I only shoot vintage SXS and this is the range I use, under 7500 psi.
I don't need those other heavier loads for skeet, sporting clays, 5 stand. I shoot for pleasure not for who's the best.
"When you figure out how and when true differences in primers are going to show up you let me know."
I just did.
I don't need those other heavier loads for skeet, sporting clays, 5 stand. I shoot for pleasure not for who's the best.
"When you figure out how and when true differences in primers are going to show up you let me know."
I just did.
Major146 said:
Primer choice can make a really significant difference in pressures. The evidence has been posted several times on the forum. Below is an image of some results produced by ADI's lab in Australia, originally put up a few years ago by forum member aussieblackduck.David W said:
ADI is Australian Defense Industries. They manufacture a bunch of powders that are imported into the US by Hodgdon. The powder in the table was AS-30N, which is sold as "Clays" in the USA. Components except primers were uniform for all tests, with 19.0 grains of powder, WAA12SL wad with 1 oz shot,
The primers are ranked by velocity, from 1283 fps max to 1218 fps, which isn't a whole lot of difference. (I don't know what test procedure they used to determine velocity.)
Pressures (column 5) ranged from 11342 psi (about max) to 7486 psi. That's a whole lot of difference due to primer selection.
The tests were conducted about 19 years ago; some primers may have changed since then. You'll have to do your own identifying of which current non-US primers correspond to those listed. The Win AA243 was an Australian-mfd primer which has been discontinued, I think.
Of course the rank order will be changed with different combinations of components. It will also be likely to change somewhat if the exact components in the chart were retested.
After reviewing these results, I concluded that primer substitution should not be undertaken haphazardly, or with the notion that warnings against it were only intended for wusses.
Be careful.
--Bob
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Edited to update link to image source
this has been talked about for years...
even the manfacturers data can in some cirrcumstances throw light and darkness to a situation.
the theoretical planning of an experiment can be the downfall of any results.
would you have an anaemic load tested? such as titewad running at 7000psi then test the interchangable primers to see which produces the highest pressure.
would having a load run at 11,000psi and then interchange, to see which one is hottest?
the pressure is a result from the main charge of powder.
i`ve pulled up alot of data on this from hodgdon, and there is no clear answer, in some cases its clear but others very variable. even so for subgauges.
even the manfacturers data can in some cirrcumstances throw light and darkness to a situation.
the theoretical planning of an experiment can be the downfall of any results.
would you have an anaemic load tested? such as titewad running at 7000psi then test the interchangable primers to see which produces the highest pressure.
would having a load run at 11,000psi and then interchange, to see which one is hottest?
the pressure is a result from the main charge of powder.
i`ve pulled up alot of data on this from hodgdon, and there is no clear answer, in some cases its clear but others very variable. even so for subgauges.
The difference in primer force, brisance, hot/cold (call it what you will), shows up as the powders get harder to ignite.
Some tests with 12 gauge target powders will give a fair representation of primer force, which the previous chart posted by pitted bore shows. I believe that powder in the test, as we know it is Clays.
If you really want to see differences in the primers and how they actually stack up from mildest to hottest than you need to run a few tests with heavier charges of both powder and shot with some of the medium to slow burn rate powders. Then it becomes extremely obvious which primer does what.
Some tests with 12 gauge target powders will give a fair representation of primer force, which the previous chart posted by pitted bore shows. I believe that powder in the test, as we know it is Clays.
If you really want to see differences in the primers and how they actually stack up from mildest to hottest than you need to run a few tests with heavier charges of both powder and shot with some of the medium to slow burn rate powders. Then it becomes extremely obvious which primer does what.
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